The English Language

[shyamwestwind]

Hello all ye Good Englishmen.
My wife works in a Hospice here for terminally ill cancer patients and we find it strange to use the word " HOSPICE" because of the way it is pronounced. It sounds like HORSE P*SS !

Many people havent heard the word nor know the meaning and I often wonder why these kind of words have to be pronounced the way they are. It could've been pronounced horse pice !!
What I would like to know from the English is whether there is any authority that looks into the intricacies of the English Language and brings about changes to the language .
Do the publishers of the Oxford and Chambers Dictionaries discuss and bring about changes in the language ?
JohnG, I hope you can throw some light on this.
I am a Bachelor of Arts in English Literature but I know that whatever I've learnt was under the threat of a cane and we couldn't question a thing. Have things changed or are we still expected to take in what our forefathers handed us ?
Oh, don't get me wrong , ever .............. I just love the English language,

[Tubbs]

You really come up with some interesting ones Shyam!! ;D

And perhaps you should of said "All you good English speaking men and women" as the language is not exclusive to England!!

Most of the English language came from the Saxons, and a lot of terms are Latin derived, "Hospice "being from the word "Hospitium", and then Anglicised. A lot of influences came also from the Vikings, the Normans, Latin, Greek etc. So you see, the English never invented their own language.

A lot of new entries are technical words. Anyone can invent a new word...years ago who heard of ipod, e-mail etc. So i suppose it is what the readers mind makes of the word really, i don't see how you are getting "Horse P*ss"...it should be "Hoss P*ss".

Now, wait for the backlash!! ;D

[JohnG]

Heehee, love it Shyam and Gerry,

Actually there are now more Indian speakers of English than English speakers of English. So the world should be speaking with an Indian dialect. Gerry is right Vikings (or Norse), Saxons, Celts, Normans, Latin, Greek, French you name it. So it is such a mixed language anyway. It is why there are usually two words for everything. One from the Germanic the other from the French influence. And then there are all those words like apostrophe and catastrophe, where the "e" is pronounced, where the word is derived from the Greek. And what about tough and bough and bought and so on. The English language is wonderful. Hoss p*ss is correct.

But email comes from e-mail which should really be E-mail. Rule: If you abbreviate to one letter then capitalise e.g. LAN or TCP/IP, so electronic mail = E-mail. We had a discussion as I recall about whether it should be midi, MIDI or Midi. Correct answer according to the rule is MIDI.

Words constanly do get added to the dictionaries. It is said that the language has altered more in the last 100 years than it did in the preceding 1000! If I compare my Concise Oxford with a modern one there are many new words and even changes in the meaning. Enormity used to mean great wickedness, now it means comparatively very large. Eh?

You also get regional differences in the use of verbs. I would say e.g. "he was standing outside the pub when I met him" (the active form of the verb) but many Irish (and others) would say "he was stood outside the pub when I met him" and I would answer who stood him there? He's not an inanimate object, he stood himself therefore was standing"! But the Irish never could speak English. They can't speak Gaelic or should that be Gallic either! Tee hee!

NOW WAIT FOR THE BACKLASH! ;D
Good thing I'm living abroad.
JohnG.

[shyamwestwind]

Well, I guess there are no ajudicators on the subject and we have no option but to pronounce a word such as "hospice' in the way it was prescribed. I think I'm going to take the law into my own hands and start pronouncing the word as HOSS PIES" If anyone dares to question me or argue with me, Ill ask him to refer to the Advanced Dictionaries and hopefully, I'd have made my contribution to the great English Language ( as an Indian ??!!!)
We could go on with all the peculiarities of the language andI would love to sit in at these discussions
Theres another great irritant which has been bugging me for the last decade ....... TEASPOONFULLS !!! I'd said that in my school, good old Bro.Fitzpatrick would have either given me a Bender with his stocky cane or I'd have wriiten two chapters from Stembridge's World Geography Book as imposition.. I was so upset when I read it in some advertisement and I'm appalled that the Oxford Dictionary confirms that it is correct ! Bah !!!!!!!

[JohnG]

No, no. Can't be pies. Only if it ended with iSe. As it ends with iCe it has to be iss. So stick with hosspiss.
Well I would say teaspoonsfull as in 3 teaspoons full of salt. The trouble is that when the correct pronunciation goes right out of use then the incorrect version enters the dictionary.

Teaspoonsfull is the same construction as courtsmartial not courtmartials. A martial of courtS.

What I do is carry the banner for the old words the american use of enormity is one of my pet hates and I tell everyone who uses it incorrectly either that we are not living in america, or ask why something is very wicked. When they poke fun at me, (and if I have it handy) I show them the entry in my dictionary and ask why they can't even speak their own native tongue.

As you say Shyam. Bah.

Funny that the Irish contingent haven't got back at me yet. Oh crikey, maybe I'm right, have you thought of that?
Watch the feathers fly.
JohnG.

[Tubbs]

Jan 28, 2009 15:14:44 GMT JohnG said:

But the Irish never could speak English. They can't speak Gaelic or should that be Gallic either! Tee hee!

NOW WAIT FOR THE BACKLASH! ;D
Good thing I'm living abroad.
JohnG.

Excellent counter-attack my learned friend.....love it!! ;D ;D ;D

Nil Gaeilge maith agam....but i do my best John!! ;D

As for Gallic.....Je ne parle pas français!! ;D

[shanless]

What a cuffufle ;D

[shyamwestwind]

Guys, I'm truly enjoying all this and am waiting for the "feathers to fly". Uh oh , yes JohnG, maybe you are right !!!!!!! I'm just stoking it .......... he he he
By the wy, guys there's a very handyCD called OXFORD ADVANCED GENIE, which you can install on your desktop and not only can you check the meanings but also hear the English and American pronunciations. Really handy stuff ....do check it out.

[JohnG]

Now just why would I want to hear an American pronunciation?
Stirring the pot!
JohnG.

[weegeo]

Well well so you are waiting on the Irish reposte, well we have sent out our scouts to search out the great `bard` that is cubb and then we shall see `feathers fly` may i just add that for a very small consideration we shall explain just exactly what he is saying lol lol so look out just when you think it`s safe the cubb may just explode out of the background and render you speechless.

weegeo------------------pondering the great english language and the great english cricket team oops said the wrong thing ---------- wait i could have said the great english football team oops wrong again lol lol lol lol

[JohnG]

Waiting the arrival of "the Cubb" with Baited breath.

What cricket or football team are you referring to? I didn't know England had either. Here speaks the voice of a British colonial, his youth spent in Uganda and Kenya.

Kwa heri,
JohnG

[simmo123]

;D ;D Hey John,just like to have my 2 cents worth, i notice that you spelt the word BAITED as in 'baited breath',back in the fifties in Grammar School as a punishment for some minor infringement of the school rules i was given a verse to read from Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice which consisted of learning the speech which the evil moneylender Shylock gave while addressing poor old Antonio when asking him to foreit a said one pound of flesh for non- payement of an outstanding debt, tis is the speech he gave

SHYLOCK
Signior Antonio, many a time and oft
In the Rialto you have rated me
About my moneys and my usances:
Still have I borne it with a patient shrug,
For sufferance is the badge of all our tribe.
You call me misbeliever, cut-throat dog,
And spit upon my Jewish gaberdine,
And all for use of that which is mine own.
Well then, it now appears you need my help:
Go to, then; you come to me, and you say
'Shylock, we would have moneys:' you say so;
You, that did void your rheum upon my beard
And foot me as you spurn a stranger cur
Over your threshold: moneys is your suit
What should I say to you? Should I not say
'Hath a dog money? is it possible
A cur can lend three thousand ducats?' Or
Shall I bend low and in a bondman's key,
With bated breath and whispering humbleness, Say this;
'Fair sir, you spit on me on Wednesday last;
You spurn'd me such a day; another time
You call'd me dog; and for these courtesies
I'll lend you thus much moneys'?
just thought i 'd stir the pot a bit,Simmo ;D ;D
i can still recite most of it after all that time,but i can't remember what i did on tuesday

[JohnG]

Well now you caught me there Simmo.
When I was typing it I paused and thought "bated or baited" and chose the latter.
I wos rong! It is bate as in restrained, not bate or bait as in angry nor baited as in fish hook.
In sooth, I know not why I am so sad:
It wearies me; you say it wearies you:
But how I caught it, found it, or came by it,
What stuff 'tis made of, whereof it is born,
I am to learn:
And such a want-wit sadness makes of me,
That I have much ado to know myself.
and
The moon shines bright: in such a night as this,
When the sweet wind did gently kiss the trees ...
and
The quality of mercy is not strain'd,
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven ...

Similar educations I trow. What think'st thou?
JohnG.

[simmo123]

Good one john!!! if my memory serves me right that was spoken by Antonio's sweetheart Portia when she was pleading for her lover's life to be spared when Shylock was demanding he's pound of flesh in the courts,Simmo still trying to remember what he was doing on Tuesday ;D ;D

[Tubbs]

Hee Hee.....good stuff Lads!! ;D

As the great George Bernard Shaw said.....“We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.”

Didn't this great Irishman have a great command of the English language..(which was invented by the Germans)!!!!! ;D ;D ;D

[shyamwestwind]

Do the kids of today know or learn about the great Bard ? We had "The Merchant of Venice" and"Hamlet" at school and I enjoyed every class. We enacted the play and I was the "stand by" Bassanio. I couldn't have done the role , actually as Bassanio didn't limp, but I guess the Brothers felt sorry for me.
At College, we had Reverend Macphailwho was recognised as one of the World Experts on Shakespeare. It was, indeed the best years of my college life, listening to him bringing the characters to life.
Do they still teach Shakespeare in the schools in G.B.?

[JohnG]

Hi Gerry,
Go to the top of the class Terry.
Well actually first Celts (as far as we know) then the Roman invasion, then the 3 Germanic tribes (the Angles, the Saxons and the Jutes) then the Viking invasion (or Norse) then the Norman (French) so a real hodge podge. That is why we have two or more words for everything. My wife's father was professor of Celtic languages at Bonn university so I have suffered the half hour lecture many many many many many times. But GBS, one of the greats.

I really don't know Shyam, I think they get a diet of Tolkien and Harry Potter today.

All the best,
Johng

[JazzCat]

Jan 28, 2009 20:06:58 GMT JohnG said:

What I do is carry the banner for the old words the american use of enormity is one of my pet hates and I tell everyone who uses it incorrectly either that we are not living in america, or ask why something is very wicked. When they poke fun at me, (and if I have it handy) I show them the entry in my dictionary and ask why they can't even speak their own native tongue.
quote]


Hmmmmmmm. Out of all the peoples, countries, and languages you spoke about, you have every one, sans 'American' and 'America' beginning with an uppercase letter. Even more interesting is that it occurred twice. Hmmmmmm. Parapraxis perhaps?
Dost thou think-eth we across the pond-eth deserve less-eth? LOL!

[Tubbs]

"Parapraxis" .....Was a repressed motive behind this spelling error John?? ;D


One of my pet hates is "Aluminum" (American) which should be "Aluminium" (English).

But i love American people!!

[JohnG]

Just testing to see if the salmon are rising JazzCat, and they are.
How about nucular instead of nuclear, a well known Bushism.
And those across the pond definitely deserve less, much less, especially the bankers.
No-one I think would argue with the last bit. They've just posted 20Bn in bonuses?
What world are they living in?
No offence meant JazzCat! Just seeing if you are awake!
JohnG.