Tuned percussion in MIDI?

[JohnG]

Hi all,

Maybe there's a MIDI teckie out there who can help me please?

I need to insert some tuned percussion into a midifile. Specifically 2 timpani at different frequencies and two triangles ditto. I'm assuming I'll need 2 channels, one for each instrument but could it be done on one? how do I set it up? Kit is Yamaha MU128 i.e. XG. I know I saw this described in a document ages ago but I can't find it and I can't remember.

Any help would be gratefully received.
Many thanks,
Best regards,
JohnG.

[JohnG]

Silly me!
Timpani's right there at MIDI instrument number 48.
But tuned triangles, especially if I want them sounding together?
Regards,
JohnG.

[pdiroma]

JohnG,
I believe Triangles are part of the drum kit for each drum set. But, I don't think you can tune them, even if you put the drum note on a separate track.

[JohnG]

Hi Pdiroma,
Thanks, yes triangle mute and open are part of the standard set, notes g#4 and a4. I was wondering whether I could exchange the mute for the open and retune them both. I know the XG spec. has some clever retuning capabilities. I wondered if anyone here had used them.
Thanks,
JohnG.

[gibbo]

Hi John,
Wie geht's?
Yes, there is a way to tune, change reverb, volume etc of individual drums, particularly in a GS kit but I'm pretty sure it works for the Yamaha XG kits too.
Check out this link for the basics; www.ski.org/Rehab/DBGilden/JWilliams/appxD.html about halfway down the page it gets into drum kits. The only thing you need is the correct note # for the drum sound you want to change then just do the controller routine as described.
I can walk you through it if you need but you'll probably figure it out quickly.
Tschüs, bis bald, Dave.

[JohnG]

Hi Gibbo,
danke gut und sie? Yea, that seems to be the sort of thing. I'll give it a whirl and let you know.
Tchö.
Actually I think I may be leading myself up the garden path here due to my unfamiliarity with orchestral scores. It actually says on the 1st sheet of the score before one of the lines "Triangolo G. Cassa e Piatti" which I've now translated to "triangle, large drum and cymbals". They are all written on the bass clef, so how do I work out which is which? Is each instrument given a particular note on the stave much like a MIDI drum kit?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Best regards,
JohnG.

[pmalcolm]

Purely a guess but I suspect that the traingle would be the highest note, the cymbals the middle note and the large drum would be the lowest note. This sort of matches the way it would be scored in a percussion part.

[JohnG]

Hi Paul,
Mmmm, thanks for that, there's only one problem with it, how many pages of the 408 in the full score do I go through before I'm sure I have it correctly? ;-} ... Using that thought I've had another quick look and when there is just a triangle it uses the treble clef and has a C shown in the stave. So I'll follow the thought Paul and report back if anyone is interested. BTW the score also has a load of transposed instruments in it and all the Viola parts are written using the old fashioned is it Alto clef? I'll struggle on.
Many thanks to all helpers,
Best regards,
JohnG.

[gibbo]

Good Luck, John!
It sounds like you're involved in a huge Orchestral project... no life without Bach?
To answer your question about how I'm going... alles klar!
Good Luck with your Project.
Cheers, Dave.

[JohnG]

Hi Dave,
Yup, kein Leben ohne Bach. Und nicht alles Klar bitte, "danke gut" ist besser oder "auch gut". Alles Klar=everything's clear really or I understand.
Ich bin Englader aber meine Lebensgefärtin ist Deutsch.
As for the project, "Mi chiamano Mimi" for my better half. She has "a voice". Sings the lead soprano or mezzo in choirs etc. locally. Outstanding but then I'm biased. The earlier project from marriage of Figaro was much easier.
Any chilled tinnies in the Eski? Pass us one.
No? Must be time for a cuppa.
Best regards,
JohnG

[gibbo]

Right you are, John. I guess it's a sort of slang term amongst my German friends for "everything's OK" rather than the literal "everything's clear". Then again, my German is pretty rusty, I was last there in the early 70s back in my Rock Group days so it's most likely 70s slang!
Yes, I saw that you were a Brit living in Germany from one of your earlier posts, I remember you writing that you're an English teacher. (And a very adventurous midi sequencer too by the sounds of it. You're a brave man tackling Puccini's La Bohème.)
Yes, there are plenty of tinnies in the Eski but you're more likely to get a cuppa here too.
Anyway, mate, thanks for the responses, you made me smile.
Cheers, Dave.

[pmalcolm]

Viola is STILL scored in the alto cleff so it's back to basic theory for that one! The only reason the alto cleff is used is, allegedly, to avoid using leger lines!

[JohnG]

Hi Paul and Gibbo,
Many thanks for your posts. Yup, Paul, viola is marked with an alto clef but I'm not so unused to this as most of the music I sequence is Bach Cantatas (again for my Lebensgefärtin) so I have to work with alto, tenor and soprano clefs. I'm having a lttle more difficulty in this instance working with transposing instruments where they jump from clarinet in Bb to clarinet in A then back again and so on. My sequencer (XGworks) does at least allow me to define transposing instruments with a list of 36 to work with!!! Gonna find out how this works pretty soon. This is a wonderful opportunity to learn.
My current, part time, job is as an English teacher here in Germany but my former existence was as a telecommunications protocol specialist. I ended up from about '96, on a freelance basis, teaching a couple of thousand (literally) people in BT about ISDN, TCP/IP, LANs and so on and then went on for a couple of years to do a similar job, around the world, teaching satellite comms. That's how I came to visit Sydney and Brisbane, Gibbo, and learnt the wonder of chilled tinnies and eskis. I spent a week in both places the second part actually on Bribie Island. There's a satellite down station nearby on the mainland.
Yea, "alles Klar", still in common usage used to mean I understand. Also lots of "ach so!" etc. I'm still learning the lingo though. Ah well, must get on. Great to have a natter! I do like this forum. Best regards,
JohnG.

[oldsage]

if you want to,use 2 or 3 tracks but use the same track number for each,in gm or gs it,s 10 in xg i think it,s 9 for drum tracks.so if you tune one lot on one track and tuned different on the next and so on as long as you make each track the same number it will play on the same track,if you understand what i mean!

[pmalcolm]

With XG you can use track 9 for drums as well as the usual track 10 but you do have to make sure that the control 0 is set at 127 and control 32 is set at 127 otherwise it won't work. In theory you can do this with ANY of the 16 channels but I have had problems with channels other than 9 or 10.

[JazzCat]

For 'tuning' a triangle I would use a separate channel other than 10 and I'd be lazy and use pitch bend. Fast and easy. Sure I might have to add controllers to extend my bend range as well but that's not difficult. they are the same controllers you'd use on any instrument or track.


And for those who never knew and are curious about the Alto Clef, here's a great spot to learn about it:
www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/texta/Altoclef.html

and here's a page with ALL of the clefs. There are a lot more than the average Joe really needs to know about.
www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/appendix/clefs/clefs.html

[JohnG]

Hey Jazzcat,
What a good idea, why didn't I think of that? Mmm, answer's easy, not enough grey cells.
In terms of learning about music have you tried the Dolmetsch site? It has dozens of pages on music theory.
www.dolmetsch.com/introduction.htm
Thanks again, duh, do I feel stupid!
JohnG.

[JazzCat]

Glad lil ol' me could help! Seems that some of the simplest souutions evade us at times, probably because they ARE so simple. LOL!

BTW, Your articles on MIDI remind me very much of the book "MIDI for the Technophobe" written by Paul White. You write like he does, with simplicity, giving the information that the average Joe who wants to learn can use and understand!
I hope you keep it up!

[JohnG]

Thanks for that JazzCat,

I will indeed do my best to keep them up. Just a bit snowed under right at the mo'. Both with the job and I'm trying to sequence a few fairly long classical pieces for my partner. It's the first time I've done a sequence that goes beyond 32 channels and uses a number of add on Yamaha PLG cards, so I'm feeling a little s t r e t c h e d.

Yep, I know of Paul White but haven't got that book. I think he also writes for Sound on Sound magazine. I like his style too. I learnt it when I was a freelance telecoms trainer working in British Telecom. Most of my "students" knew little or nothing about the subject and I had a week to get them up to speed selling ISDN and ADSL etc. One of the most satisfying periods of my life with around 2,000 people "processed"!

Regarding the consumer level output of the Ketron, my MU128 is the same, so I soldered up a pair of RCA to 1/4" jack plug leads and feed those into the mixer as if they were pro level inputs but, of course, the input level gain is just a little higher than pro gear. Seems a shame to waste a good unit just 'cos you've got the wrong lead. The unbalanced to balanced is taken care of by just having the signal leads soldered at the RCA end and the ground lead connected at the TRS jack plug end. So far no earth loops.

There's the same issue going from mixer aux out to FX unit in with balanced to unbalanced and I solve it in the same way. It helps to be able to wield a soldering iron sometimes.

Best regards,
JohnG.

[JazzCat]

My concerns are not making an RCA to TS (unbalanced) or TRS (balanced) adapter. Soldering things like that is a snap. I do cord repair often. ( I don't do board soldering)

My concerns are the fact that the SD2 outs are Consumer Line Level ( -10dBu) and the line (instrument) inputs on my mixer are Pro Line Level (+4dBu) I don't know if the preamp in the board would bring it up to +4dBu and not cause a hefty noise floor increase, or cause the mixer to work too hard, or whatever. That's a dif in 14 dBu. I intend on asking my teacher about it if I can freakin' remember to do so. LOL! I'm a baby beginner to signal processing and it seems once I learn a little it brings up more worries and questions.


BTW the Paul White book is the text book in the class I am taking! Needless to say the class is barely srubbishing the surface of MIDI but, I am getting something out of it. It's forcing me out of the realm of GM as has ownership of the SD2.