What to upgrade to

[zieb]

Hello all, Im new to the site and the forum , and I have a question ...

I currently use a Roland SC 88 Pro and the Roland VSC synth, Im strictly playing midi files as a hobby at home with my bass guitar and mixing them on to a Boss Br 1600.

What would be better or more realistic sounding sound module to upgrade to? I have heard a Sonic Cell but it didnt impress me but it could have been the sales man lack of knowledge of the unit.

Im open to both modules or keyboards, I would have to assume the sound has improved from the early 90's

PS: I tested Bandstand as well and found my current set up to sound better.

[JohnG]

Hi Zieb,

Well, the SC88pro isn't a bad sounding unit. I have the SC8850 which has the 88 sounds within it. I'm genuinely surprised you didn't like the SonicCell as many here seem to be over the moon with its quality.

If you're looking at 2nd hand gear then maybe a Yamaha MU128 (late 90s) might suit, it has a good number of sounds to choose from and loads of effects to enhance the sounds. But with both Roland and Yamaha you have to get familiar with accessing those effects by learning the SysEx commands to issue. And using these FX to good effect (sorry!) is the real key to getting the best out of them, just as a studio will take a basic instrument add reverb, maybe a touch of chorus, some distortion, play with EQ and so on to make that "hit" sound.

The "realistic" sound you're searching for may be right there in your SC88 waiting to be released. Remember hit songs were made in the past using these modules or ones very similar to them.

As for keyboards maybe the latest Yamaha PSR S900 is a gooding by all reports. You're talking some serious money though. 2nd hand maybe the PSR 3000.

Hope that helps, no doubt others will have suggestions too!
JohnG.

[zieb]

Thanks John for your reply and suggestions, I may have to give Sonic another look, although I took a mid file with me to the music store to play back it was just poor.
Frankly I'm not much of a tweaker but I think I need to explore and experiment with my 88 Pro a little more.
I basically just load the file and hope the person or the company that created the file has made it as close to the original as possible. If you had a choice between a 88 and the 8850 which would you pick?
I can see that the Forum is going to be a great place for information.

[levi2]

all i can suggest is if your trying a sound module ie roland or yamaha take a good midi file with you because it dosnt matter how good the hardware is if the midi is rubbish it`ll play rubbish on the best of gear i always find the drums are better on the yamaha gear but the choir voices and accoustic guitars are better on the roland

levi2

[JohnG]

Well the 8850 has the 88, the pro and the 55 sounds in it so I guess it's got to be that. But I've never owned an 88 so I don't know if they are directly comparable. I picked my 8850 up off eBay UK. You may need to start doing some simple editing of the MIDI files to insert a Roland reset and then select the extra voices available rather than the bog standard GM set. Experimentation is key to getting the most from the module.

Like Levi says there are differences in the voices between Yamaha and Roland. I like the huge range of orchestral voices in my MU1000, which I imported from Japan. Having both sets to call upon is great.

Take a look at my MIDI section and try to get familiar with some of it. Most importantly "take your time", this sort of stuff takes a while to assimilate and start to use. try doing some simple edits initially and see what you get. You may be surprised just how many good voices and FX are hiding away inside that 88.

Above all, have fun! ;D
Johng

[charlie]

Hello Zieb,

I am also searching for a better, more realistic sound module. But, it's just like levi2 says...a poorly written sequence will not sound good on any module. A perfect exmaple of this is the Roland demo disk I received when I first purchased my Sound Canvas SC-55 back in the 90's. When I play that demo disk, it is the most beautiful, lush, and well written collection of sequences I have ever heard. But, I can pop in a free midi file I downloaded and the quality is simply not there. Now, that's not to say that all free midi files sound rubbishpy. There are some very well written and balanced midis here on MidiMart, as I have downloaded a truck load of them. But, I believe the power is in the hands of the programmer...the ones who actually write and record the sequences. If you can get your hands on a Roland demo disk, you'll see and hear what I'm talking about.
Now, as far as the Roland SC-88 Pro and its editing capabilities, John is right on the money. Editing the sounds to your liking is the key. But, it takes some experimenting to make the sounds you want. I, like you, want to depend on the person or company to produce a great sounding midi file, and there are several companies out there that do just that...but, you are paying them for their knowledge and editing skills. Some companies that come to mind are Trantracks.com, Ron Fry midi files, and Cybermidi...just to name a few. Most all of their files, especially the more recent ones are excellent. As these companies grow and continue to produce midis, so does their skill level. It goes without saying the more you do something, hopefully the better you get at it. Hope this helps!

P.S. Tran Whitley of Trantracks uses a Roland SC-88 Pro to produce all his sequences. They sound great. He would be someone who coulld really help you get the most out of the SC-88Pro. His website: www.trantracks.com

Charlie

[zieb]

Well I must first say thanks for all the responses and so quickly as well.
Your feedback has made me decide to get inside my 88 and do some tweaking and see what's under the hood . I admit I havent played with any of the functions since I purchased it on Ebay last March and I do agree its sounds are the best Ive heard to date.
John thanks for the comparison, Levi 2 your correct with taking a HQ file when shopping and Charlie I'll take your advice as well and talk with Tran, I had been a Cyber Midi member till last month and thought I would check out other midi services for a year.
Thanks again and I'll be talking to you all soon and let you know what I come up with.

[JohnG]

What I'll try to do in the very near future is to upload an mp3 of a file with loads of effects and with them stripped out and you'll clearly see the immense difference. Most of the files posted are made for standard GM or GM2 modules, whereas GS and XG units have huge effects units built into them as well as many, many variations on the basic GM sound set. e.g. my SC8850 has 1,640 sounds in it the basic GM set is just 128 with GM2 adding another 128. The SC8850 has 63 drum sets built in compared to 1 in GM and a further 8 added in GM2. So it's a good idea to get used to experimenting with instrument and drum selection as well as FX. It will really make your sequences stand out from the rest.
JohnG.

[JohnG]

Here we go:
Below you will find some links to 4 MIDI files the first variant is using the standard GM instrument set and no effects, the 2nd is using XG voices and effects. GS has similar voices and FX. The file name says it all!

www.4shared.com/file/71760324/58105d02/GMdrums.html
www.4shared.com/file/71760421/2d35bf08/XGdrums.html
www.4shared.com/file/71760553/8db822d4/GMelbass.html
www.4shared.com/file/71760649/763044d2/XGelbass.html
www.4shared.com/file/71760752/f93bc62c/GMelguit.html
www.4shared.com/file/71760839/33efff1f/XGelguit.html
www.4shared.com/file/71760914/7eaa8b17/GMelpian.html
www.4shared.com/file/71760981/df02c4d1/XGelpian.html

They should give you some idea of what a good sound module is capable of. These were done using my ancient Yamaha SW1000-XG sound card.

Hope you like them!
JohnG.

[zieb]

Wow! John quite impressive and the differences are night and day
Now when you altered the default was it done on the hardware itself or do you use a software type program / interface that you are able to alter and save as as user preference that can be recalled and stored ?

I ve been peeking in my 88 pro manual and there is a ton of alternate sounds, example is there are 8 GM basses but deeper in side 88 there are over 40 other bass variations.So Im currently trying how to figure out how to gain access to them through Cakewalk, its not as easy as the drop down menu in VCS.

So would it be safe to assume that once I have acces to all these other patches would I be able to alter them to my taste and save as a user preference patch? If this is so I may not be looking for a new module for a while.

[JohnG]

Hi Zieb,

All done in software, XGworks.

Well the sequencer of preference for me, my main instrument is the Yamaha MU or the SW1000 card, is Yamaha's XGworks. They stopped selling it a few years ago when they took over Steinberg, but it allows you to get at all the instrument setups as well as all the special SysEx messages for creating FX and so on. You can do this in other sequencers too and maybe I'll have to post a little lesson. For a start take a read of some of my lessons and then we'll get on to how to do it yourself. But basically,yes, you just enter special commands into your software sequencer and then store them.

Oh, and there are two versions of each file, one GM, the other XG. Here's another rather extreme use of distorted guitar and amplifier feedback effect.
www.4shared.com/file/71788485/aa330515/XGelargo.html

JohnG.

[zieb]

Thanks John , I'll have a look at your some of your lessons tomorrow. btw I was able to import the sc 88 and 55 maps into cakewalk and change the instruments.... now Im sittinn on a sound arsenal. Your distorted guitar was killer.

[simmo123]

Hey John, those are sounds i'd kill for (not really,Hmmm,well maybe),i wonder if the sonic cell could match those??,by the way John how is 'married life' working out,next silly question, i don't suppose you have had a chance to look at the workings of the s/cell as yet,it has got a few of members pulling the odd hair or two out ( i personally don't have that problem ) but anyway i'm sure we will master it eventually.I guess you have got the winter starting to set in over there so i will spare a thought for you as we move into summer so keep well John & say g'day to the Missus ,kind regards Simmo

[JohnG]

Hi Simmo,
Married life is suiting me very well thank you, just the same as unmarried life actually. Nothing changed really except for the wearing of a wedding ring (I'm pleased to say)

SonicCell! Although I've downloaded the manual, which I had a quick look through, it looks, on paper, as far as MIDI is concerned, not that dissimilar to my SC8850. So I haven't taken it any further. As far as sounds go your SonicCell should be able to do pretty well the same as that SW1k (SW1000-XG) card, if not better, the SW1k is from the late 90s so I'm betting the SonicCell is way ahead in sounds.

Let me take a look at the settings in there and see if I can post a version for SC. Might have to do that in private as they're copyright demo files.
Here's another GM / XG pair, classical this time.
www.4shared.com/file/71878258/16a75e53/GMclassc.html
www.4shared.com/file/71878662/da564c52/XGclassc.html
JohnG.

[simmo123]

Hi John,thanks for your response,i had a listen to the GM file but for some reason i wasn't able to listen or download the XG file, just thought i would let you know,i will send you a PM with my email address just in case you need it anytime,thanks again for your interest,Terry

[JohnG]

Strange!

Before I post these I always test the link from inside the preview of the message and they all worked for me. Is any one else having the same problem as Simmo?

JohnG.

[rainbow]

Hi John,
Just to confirm there is no problem with the link but a couple are a bit slow to come on screen so simmo you probably need to wait a couple more secs and they'll be there mate I'm following this thread with interest btw ... your midi demos are a very useful reference John ... many thanks. (Hope you've been a good boy and Santa is going to bring you a Sonic Cell this year ... I'd look forward to your expert appraisal of that unit

Best regards ... Rainbow:)

[JohnG]

No signs of a Christmas SonicCell (unless I buy it for myself) for me this year. Just some lumps of coal I think.

Sob, sob.

It certainly looks very good on paper (the SonicCell). My (all 2nd hand) MUs and my SC8850 will have to soldier on for another year. Oh Well!

JohnG

[simmo123]

Hi John,i managed to listen to the last XG file okay it took a little fiddling around,i am impressed,Simmo