What is YOUR Criteria for Quality MIDI?

[muscarella]

I'm an experienced musician but new to the world of MIDI (as "live" backing tracks). I'd like to get some feedback from fellow MidiMart forum members on some general things:

1) What is the criteria for a "quality" MIDI file? How much musical "nuance" (rhythmic "feel", attack, etc.) can actually be converted into MIDI information?

2) Is there a "state-of-the-art"? Does it come down to the talents of the MIDI transcriber/arranger as a "musician"? Or as a programmer?

3) A hypothetical: Two MIDI transcribers -- one very good, the other a "hack" -- are given the same song by the same artist. All GM protocols have been adhered to, each instrumental "part" in the arrangement has been "accounted" for (except the voice/melody line) and the track assignments and tempo are exactly alike. When I listen to both files through the same software, using the same voices, what "qualities" are going to separate the "very good" file from the "hack" file?

4) For those of you who re-edit your MIDIs there are probably aspects of the MIDI file that are more crucial --because they provide the "template" upon which you're going to build your own arrangement. What's important, what's not so important? And why?

5) How do you "audition" MIDI files? Do you run everything through your mixing software with optimum synth "voicing" or do you have some method for quickly and efficiently separating "maybes" from the "NGs"?

6) With so many MIDI sites (free and otherwise) and MIDI song files out there, how do you you keep track of what MIDI's you've already considered so you don't waste your time on the exact same file if/when it turns up on some other site? Is there a VIEW or COMPARE function on Windows XP that would make it easy to sort things out? And what if something is converted from Format O to Format 1 (or something else), but otherwise identical? Is there a software program out there for this purpose? (I looked through the free downloads offered on MIDI Mart but didn't recognize anything.)

7) When using "backing tracks" on a "live" gig, do you use MIDI playback or do you convert the MIDI into digital audio? What are the Pro's & Con's? I understand the convenience of mixing everything down to MP3, but what if you want to retain some volume and FX control over the various tracks, depending on the gig or venue? Does it come down to using a laptop? If so, MIDI playback or digital audio tracks?

I welcome and appreciate any and all feedback!

[a.j.]

Hi Muscarella,

Gee - lots of questions - I'm sure youre going to get many different opinions. I'm interested to see what other replies come out of this one. Well, here's my 5 cent's worth - brace yourself. Sorry if any of what I'm about to say is patently obvious to everyone else

I'm also a relative newcomer to Midi - for performance that is, but I've been collecting files for quite some time. I haven't used them much to work with (give me a live band any day), but there is more regular work for smaller bands (where I live, anyway), and replacing a drummer, bass and keyboard player with a sequencer can be useful, and an economic necessity for smaller gigs.

I haven't written many files from scratch - my Fiance (a guitarist) has done quite a few, but there are so many good ones available now, that it's hardly worth the effort (I'm sure there are other people who can help you with that aspect).

You mentioned a template upon which to create your own arragements - you should have look at Bank-in-a-Box from PG music.

Keeping track of the files that you've listened to can get out of hand - especially when there's a site like midimart - so much choice! I recently resorted to listing them on a spreadsheet, with comments that I can filter on (otherwise there'd be one awful file that pops up again and again - trust me). You can end up with 2 or 3 versions of the same song, or files that are identical - one way to check is to look at the file size.

Also, paying for Midi files is not a guantee of quality - I recorded backing vocals for a guy a couple of years ago who bought some midi files from a local company, and the free ones that I downloaded were far better.

When you listen to files for the first time, do it through a decent sound card - otherwise you might end up dismissing a really good file (made that mistake before).
I usually listen to files on my desktop PC, through Virtual Sound Canvas.

There's not much science to it, I look for files that do not need much doing to them, for quick results - I can always go back to the bad ones later and fix them, if I have the time and inclination, and if I can't find a decent one anywhere else.

I listen to the basic arrangement - all the way through, to check that everything is in the right place, and in the right order (no bars missing). You'd be surprised how many files start off sounding great, and disintegrate half way through (e.g the drum track disappears). I also check the ending - a lot of files fade at the end (or have no proper ending at all), and if you want to use them live, you will have to write your own ending. One thing that I like about the guys at Midimart is that the files have proper endings.

We usually mute the melody track and guitar solos, which is easier if they are in a track by themselves. I had a really nice file once, for a song that I wanted to do, and the melody switched between about 4 instruments (very creative) - so instead of just muting one melody track, I had to edit the melody out of each of the 5 tracks - took ages.

Finally, and I'm sure everyone does this - we usually "tweak" the sound fonts, and the track volume levels (perhaps copying the bass track and changing the font of the second track to add more depth, slowing the ending down, etc) - my better half is really good at this, so I leave him to it. For us, this only works if we listen to the file through a set of PA bins. We use PowerTracks and Voyetra.

For live work, we use a laptop. We used to run it through a SoundBlaster Extigy (external sound card) - a lot of my friends use Sound Canvas modules. We recently bought Virtual Sound Canvas (a softsynth) and I'm rather impressed (no external modules) - I'd like to know what anyone else thinks. We're going to use it live for the first time over Christmas. We will play the files on Power Tracks.

I had thought of carrying a backup of my files in audio format on CD or an MP3 player, in case the laptop falls over, but I never get round to it - if we worked more often, we would probabaly do it. The other alternatve is to carry a spare laptop, which we have done in the past.

Hope this info was useful.

[midimart]

Emerald Midi Wrote

Hi muscarella and welcome to the forum.

What a first post!

Too many questions for me to deal with to night, but I've no doubt others will be along with more definitive answers in due course. So please visit back again.

I will just say for now that my own criteria for a good midi is actually fairly simple: If it sounds good; has a solid bass, solid beat, is well balanced, etc, and I enjoy the over all feel when I play along it, it will do for me.

But having said all that the best test is when you actually play it at a gig.

Pat.

[geraint]

I am very much a newcomer to Midi and have searched the web for many songs. Some have been good, and some have been bad.
Without wishing to offend any of the contributors to this site, I have generally found that if a file says " Not-MM" I have to fully check the file and sometimes modify it (only after the guidance of Midimart staff), to suit my needs.
I do not use a laptop for playing my files, I use a Yamaha keyboard, so I can still retain the volume, and control over the track.
Having played over the years with many bands, I can happily say that the files I have obtained from Midimart have been a pleasure to gig with, and have been a lot cheaper than paying the rest of the band.
Not only that, but if you do have a problem with a particular song, these guys are so helpfull, that it is quickly sorted for you via the forum.

I was frightened of using Midi files until I found this site, but not any more.

If you are looking for quality, you have found it.

Geraint

[Emerald Midi]

I do not use a laptop for playing my files, I use a Yamaha keyboard, so I can still retain the volume, and control over the track.

Precisely why I use my keyboard too.

[JazzCat]

1) What is the criteria for a "quality" MIDI file? How much musical "nuance" (rhythmic "feel", attack, etc.) can actually be converted into MIDI information?
------------------
These 2 questions really should have been asked separate. A quality file to me is one with a good arrangement, and the rhythmic 'feel' you talk about, as well as variance in dynamics. I want it to sound as close to a group of live players as possible! Personally, I find the most Band-In-a-Box created files lack in all of the above.

As to your question of how much musical nuances can be recreated, well, rhythm and natural sounding timing can be recreated with extreme precision. Consider that a quarter note is divided into segments. The higher the PPQN the more 'segments' there are. These segments are called PPQN (Parts or Pulses Per Quarter Note) You will hear people also say 'ticks' or 'clicks' when discussing it. You really need no more than 192 PPQN to satisfy even the most discriminating ear. The program I use is set to 480 mine is not changeable, however, if you use Cakewalk/Sonar you can change the range.

(From Sonar's help file)
***timing resolution, or timebase indicates the resolution of MIDI data. This resolution is measured in ticks or pulses per quarter note and is often abbreviated as PPQ. The default resolution is 960PPQ, which is accurate enough for most applications. In this timebase, each quarter note is represented by 960 ticks, each eighth note by 480 ticks, each eighth-note triplet by 320 ticks, and so on.

In some projects you may need a different timebase. For example, if you wanted to use eighth-note septuplets (7 eighth notes per quarter note) and represent them accurately, you would need to have a timebase that is divisible by 7, such as 168PPQ.***

Why is this important you ask? Well, not even the best musician on the planet can play with such precision that their notes fall in perfect time. If you want it to sound real, notes can not fall in picture perfect time. If they do the song will sound and feel mechanical. In my opinion the best MIDI files are the ones that a real human has played every part in.

Now for dynamics. The velocity (how hard a note is struck) is divided into 127 segments, from 0 through 127. For some players this just isn't enough range, but for most it is. Dynamics can also be controlled with main volume (CC7) and/or expression(CC11) If you use the three together the variances can be very realistic.

=====================================
2) Is there a "state-of-the-art"? Does it come down to the talents of the MIDI transcriber/arranger as a "musician"? Or as a programmer?
---------
There is no 'state of the art'. It most definitely comes down to being a good musician and also having a good understanding of MIDI sequencing in the program of your choice.

==============================
3) A hypothetical: Two MIDI transcribers -- one very good, the other a "hack" -- are given the same song by the same artist. All GM protocols have been adhered to, each instrumental "part" in the arrangement has been "accounted" for (except the voice/melody line) and the track assignments and tempo are exactly alike. When I listen to both files through the same software, using the same voices, what "qualities" are going to separate the "very good" file from the "hack" file?

The qualities I mentioned above. The hack is probably going to be clicking in the notes with his mouse. All velocities are going to be the same and all notes will fall in perfect time....or... they may be using a program like Band-In-A-Box to plug the chords in, then do no editing to the tune to improve it.
If you are talking about a cover tune, I would assume you probably would be looking for an arrangement that duplicate the original tune as best as it can. I occasionally go for that. Other times I happen to prefer someone else's arrangement that does not sound like the original. This is simply a matter of musical taste.

=====================================
4) For those of you who re-edit your MIDIs there are probably aspects of the MIDI file that are more crucial --because they provide the "template" upon which you're going to build your own arrangement. What's important, what's not so important? And why?
---------------
For me a criteria is how much time am I going to have to spend on editing the file.This really varies from one file to the next, and also on how much I want or need the file to begin with. I'll take a file that isn't all that great and is in dire need of a lot of editing to bring it up to my personal standards if I can't find one that already is.

==================
5) How do you "audition" MIDI files? Do you run everything through your mixing software with optimum synth "voicing" or do you have some method for quickly and efficiently separating "maybes" from the "NGs"?
-------------
I audition files on the net by opening them in my sequencing program so I not only hear what's going on, I see it as well. I have it set up so a file automatically opens in my program.
I disagree with using file size as a criteria for deciding on whether to listen to a file or not. There are a lot of badly done files that are quite big and some excellent files that are amazingly small. Also there may 2 files that just happen to be the same exact size, but are completely different arrangements. If you are looking for the best you can find it's obvious that you need to listen to as much as you can. It will be obvious within the first bar or 2 if you are hearing the same dud file you just heard elsewhere. Once you find a file you like it is imperative that you play it on your gig equipment. I could go into the less obvious whys but that would take another paragraph or 2.

======================================
6) With so many MIDI sites (free and otherwise) and MIDI song files out there, how do you keep track of what MIDI's you've already considered so you don't waste your time on the exact same file if/when it turns up on some other site? Is there a VIEW or COMPARE function on Windows XP that would make it easy to sort things out? And what if something is converted from Format O to Format 1 (or something else), but otherwise identical? Is there a software program out there for this purpose? (I looked through the free downloads offered on MIDI Mart but didn't recognize anything.)
-----------------------------------------
There is no program to compare a file. You MUST use your ears. Don't consider coming across the same file as a 'waste of time'. When it comes to finding what you want patience is necessisary! Also you may want to consider alternatives to simply searching the net or forking out your hard earned dollars for pro files. Over the years I have made many contacts that have supplied me with thousands of files. I am now helping other professional musicians in the same way I have been helped.

=====================================
7) When using "backing tracks" on a "live" gig, do you use MIDI playback or do you convert the MIDI into digital audio? What are the Pro's & Con's? I understand the convenience of mixing everything down to MP3, but what if you want to retain some volume and FX control over the various tracks, depending on the gig or venue? Does it come down to using a laptop? If so, MIDI playback or digital audio tracks?
-------------------------------------
Most people I know now have converted to using audio tracks. I still have not. One pro to audio is that there is no way a controller from a previous file, which as not been reset to default, will affect the following file.

The main disadvantage to audio is that you can not make any on the fly changes.
Cat >^..^<

[davesasinger]

I have also stayed with MIDI for live work. Why?

There's more to MIDI than playing songs. My files also run a harmonizer which is programmed with exact harmonies. My lighting also runs from MIDI, again, each song having its own lighting scene. And finally, my Allen & Heath powered desk (and previously a Studiomaster) has the facility to operate the effects section from MIDI. Switch off effects between songs, switch on any one of 18 effects, and even change them mid song if need be. No footswitches or stomp lighting controllers - I just get on with the music.

None of this would be possible if I used audio. Haven't yet sussed how to get MIDI to take down the gear at the end, but I'm working on it :-)

Dave

[JazzCat]

Hey Dave, It sounds like you've really got all bases covered! I would very much like to learn how to use MIDI for lighting as well. I'm also wanting to get into using a harmonizer.

First, would you tell me which harmonizer unit you are using and what it's features are, then would you tell me what you need and how to cue lighting with MIDI.
I assume you dedicate one channel of your files for the harmonizer and another for lights. The other14 channels for music.

I know that one can connect a MIDI de-coder to the PC. These are made to pick up
midi signals and then open/close switches as the midi notes go on/off, but I don't see how this would work on fading lights up or down because it's strictly used for on off switches.

Cat >^..^<

[pdiroma]

Cat,

I pretty much agree with your take on MIDI. I started sequencing on a Roland MMT-8, years ago and still use an Atari 1040ST to do my sequencing and serious editing. It's slow compared to the PC based programs, however it does all that I want it to do. I have Cakewalk and few others, but they are not as easy to use.
I have found if you convert a Midi file to WAV or MP3 it takes on a HI-FI quality and loses the realism of the Midi file with a decent tone generator and as you said, you no longer have control of the sound/controllers on the fly.
As with you, I have never liked Band-in-the-Box Midi's. And boy, you can hear it right away.
When you talk about the nuances of the music, I have found that an instrument's placement in the stereo field is very important as is the velocity of the notes, the term " Hack" does come to mind. I normally can hear if a file is decent in the first few bars.
With all this said, I am primarily a singer and use the music to compliment my voice as it sure beats a guitar and an electronic drummer. I play music every weekend and have a partner who just sings. I play keys and guitar. I no longer travel or do road work, but I still love it, even if it is parttime.

Patrick

[Stephanie]

Hi Muscarella:

I'm an experienced musician but new to the world of MIDI (as "live" backing tracks). I'd like to get some feedback from fellow MidiMart forum members on some general things:

1) What is the criteria for a "quality" MIDI file? How much musical "nuance" (rhythmic "feel", attack, etc.) can actually be converted into MIDI information?

A surprising amount, if you have a good controller and a synth that can play everything back. A keyboard by itself is NOT a good controller for things like winds and guitars or drums. Specialised breath controllers, MIDI guitars and MIDI-enabled drums do a much better job of capturing a good player's nuances and expression on such instruments. A good sound module that can reproduce the full GM spec with authentic voices is also essential.

2) Is there a "state-of-the-art"? Does it come down to the talents of the MIDI transcriber/arranger as a "musician"? Or as a programmer?

State of the art? I think the better the musician, the better the music, until you hit the limits of MIDI, your equipment and your budget. A good programmer can make sound modules do amazing things in terms of sound generation. While that can contribute significantly to the overall piece, I still think music comes from the soul, via the fingers, hands and voice. A programmer can "build" you a "Stradivarius" but it's silent until it's played. The two complement each other.

3) A hypothetical: Two MIDI transcribers -- one very good, the other a "hack" -- are given the same song by the same artist. All GM protocols have been adhered to, each instrumental "part" in the arrangement has been "accounted" for (except the voice/melody line) and the track assignments and tempo are exactly alike. When I listen to both files through the same software, using the same voices, what "qualities" are going to separate the "very good" file from the "hack" file?

Dynamics and human feel, as well as little things like grace notes, pitch bends and the like. Of course it depends on what you mean by "very good" - are you looking for a mechanical, trance/rave beat which is supposed to scream automation and pack the dance floor, or a realistic reproduction of a good band? A hack file will probably have very flat dynamics and note velocities, repetitive and simplistic drum patterns and little attention paid to track balancing. Drum rolls and 16th-note runs that sound like machine guns are a dead giveaway. Pans (stereo placement) may be ignored. A good sequence will probably have had each track performed (as opposed to step-entered) - and will sound much more "live" as a result.

4) For those of you who re-edit your MIDIs there are probably aspects of the MIDI file that are more crucial --because they provide the "template" upon which you're going to build your own arrangement. What's important, what's not so important? And why?

I edit MIDIs to provide accompaniment tracks for a vocal ensemble. For me the correct harmony in the tracks is essential. Different sound cards/modules/keyboards have different idiosyncrasies (e.g. playing an acoustic bass three octaves up may have a tone you like on your sound card but may sound awful - or not play at all - through my keyboard). Relying on these quirks is deadly.

5) How do you "audition" MIDI files? Do you run everything through your mixing software with optimum synth "voicing" or do you have some method for quickly and efficiently separating "maybes" from the "NGs"?

I always play back through my keyboard. I listen for the "hack" criteria above. If an arrangement grabs me and has me humming along in the first few bars I'll give it a try, otherwise it's Meet Mr. Trashcan.

6) With so many MIDI sites (free and otherwise) and MIDI song files out there, how do you you keep track of what MIDI's you've already considered so you don't waste your time on the exact same file if/when it turns up on some other site? Is there a VIEW or COMPARE function on Windows XP that would make it easy to sort things out? And what if something is converted from Format O to Format 1 (or something else), but otherwise identical? Is there a software program out there for this purpose? (I looked through the free downloads offered on MIDI Mart but didn't recognize anything.)

Many duplicate-catching programs will work on MIDIs. Files that are exactly the same number of bytes long are likely to be duplicates - although I've had some surprises. Format 0/1 files can sound identical but be different in length, though, so it doesn't always work. And a simple change in instrument may not change the length. I suppose you could render the files to MP3s and compare them as binary files, but I think that's overkill.

7) When using "backing tracks" on a "live" gig, do you use MIDI playback or do you convert the MIDI into digital audio? What are the Pro's & Con's? I understand the convenience of mixing everything down to MP3, but what if you want to retain some volume and FX control over the various tracks, depending on the gig or venue? Does it come down to using a laptop? If so, MIDI playback or digital audio tracks?

MIDI playback through my keyboard. Our group relies on precise cueing at the bar and beat level for some songs and only the keyboard can do that. I also need its track mixing to compensate for variations in PA equipment and venue. In addition, I play a few songs live or add some improvisation over the accompaniment so the keyboard's there anyway.

That said, I'm saving up for an iPod for digital audio backup!

I welcome and appreciate any and all feedback!

Hope this helps!

[Emerald Midi]

Wonderful post Stephanie.

Quick question: Does the i-pod actually play midi files without having to convert them first to MP3s? If it does I'm getting one.

[midimart]

Hi Emerald.....

We all wish that one. However, I was toying with the Idea of getting an I-pod but decided against it.

I got myself a Sony Mini-Disc Walkman that plays MP3's. So everywhere I go I can take my Sony Mini-Disc to every venue. I have the usual hi-fi size Sony MD-Player but it does not play MP3's. With this one I get the best of both worlds.

My phone plays midi, so why can't someone invent an all round sound machine..... CD, MD, MP3, MIDI, WAV, KAR, TAPE etc - all rolled into one..... (I know we have the PC-laptop) But a dedicated machine would go down a storm.

[Emerald Midi]

Hi Glenn

I thought the idea of an i-pod playing Midi was a bit too good to be true. Some day perhaps they'll be available.

But that mini-disk Sony Walkman, you have, that plays mp3s, sound like a wonderful piece of kit. Was it expencive?

And your phone plays midi! How cool is that. What phone is it? Wouldn't mind checking it out. I have a phone that plays mp3s, but not midies. I'd have to convert them to Mp3s first

[themd21]

Hi Pat

Whilst I use a keyboard to play midis for my show, for background or interval music I use an I-River MP3 player.
So what I have done is convert a show of midi files to wav or MP3
and backed them up on the I-River, just in case the keyboard mal-functions.There is an output on the I-River so the quality doesn't suffer at all.

Jimmy G

[Emerald Midi]

Wonderful suggestion Jimmy. We should back up all our files. I use a keyboard when gigging also and if the on-board midi file player were to pack in at a gig I'd be ... well, up a certain river without a paddle!

And speaking of rivers. The I - River MP3 player you mentioned is not one I'm familiar with but will look it up.

[midimart]

Hi Pat.

The Mini-Disc Walkman was not too expensive, it was from Argos, It also boasts from it's hi-md discs, you can actually get 675 songs on one disc - now how cool is that. I didn't expect the quality or it's capabilities from such a small price. £129.99.

As for my phone, I can use MP3, Wav, TV, SKY, and midi.... With many different Video functions and all the usual wap etc. It is the Ericsson v600i.

[Emerald Midi]

Cheers Glenn,

Thanks for the info. I will check out both products, especially that Erickson as I am a mobile phone fanatic and if I can get me one that plays midi I'm in heaven

I have a Motorola at the moment which plays mp3s has Bluetooth and allows me to connect to SKY and only cost €129.99 (£80.00 approx)

[Emerald Midi]

admin said:

Cheers Glenn,

Thanks for the info. I will check out both products, especially that Erickson as I am a mobile phone fanatic and if I can get me one that plays midi I'm in heaven

I have a Motorola at the moment which plays mp3s has Bluetooth and allows me to connect to SKY and only cost €129.99 (£80.00 approx)

Quick update on this. Just tried for the heck of it to see if my Motorola v770 could play midi and low and behold it does!

[midimart]

Just goes to show Pat.....

You learn something new every day, mind you if we all read the manuals that come with these things - we would know all about it.

No need to buy a new phone then...... That has saved you £129 - Can I have the £129 instead, just for telling you? ;D ;D

Wellllllllll it was worth a try.....!

[Emerald Midi]

Manuals. What are they ;D ;D

Nice try indeed. But thanks a million for the idea, though