Who makes the best GM sound module?

[charlie]

For those of us who are using general midi sound modules I pose this question: What is the best sounding GM sound module? I have three sound modules: Yamaha QY700, Roland Sound Canvas, and Kawaii G-Mega. All these sound modules have GM sound banks but they all sound so different. The QY700 drum patches are excellent but somewhat outdated. The Sound Canvas drum patches are good, but somewhat sterile, and the Kawaii drum patches are useless. The reason I am addressing drum patches is because they are most critical into making the midi files sound authentic and "live". I spend a good bit of time making sure the drum patch fits the song...tweaking the volume to get the presence required for dance oriented music, which is what I generally play. Recently I have been looking at upgrading to a better sound module, perhaps the Yamaha Motif, the Sonic Cell by Roland, or even the Ketron...but I'm stuck. What do you guys think? I know there are a lot of considerations....64 voice polyphony, multiple out ports to divide up the sound, etc. But, ultimately, it's the sound of the module that's most important, right? Please tell me what you think.....

Charlie

[ovation99]

I don't know about the Roland or Kawaii, but I have got a QY700 and know that you can tweak the drum patches "till the cows come home".
Check out page 182/186 of the manual.
you never know, this may save you forking out for a new module :-)

[JohnG]

Hmmm! Always a difficult one to answer. Because I guess I would want to ask you "best for what?" Best and widest range of orchestral sounds? Best drum sounds? Built in loop sequencer with best drum patterns? I think Ovation99 has a key point when he talks about the manual. Often we find a device can do a heck of a lot more than we thought if we read parts of the manual. The problem with drum patterns is that they constantly change so learning to input your own patterns is almost "a must". What's current today will sound outdated tomorrow. So if you get pattern programming sorted you'll probably find the QY700 will go on for years.

Again you've got a couple of good modules with the Sound Canvas and Kawai units. You'll find they're capable of a lot more than you realise if you find out a little more about how to change the sounds in them. This is how the "stars" do it by changing the sound parameters on the modules they have. Open then close a "high pass" filter here, change a filters resonance there, alter the brightness, sharpen the attack, play two or even three sounds together (layering), create a pseudo-echo effect by copying a track to another then time shifting it and reducing the volume and panning it to a different position in the sound stage.

If the work you're doing is mostly dance music I would have thought some sort of synth would be the next thing you need. I bought a Yamaha AN module a while back which was originally built to be like the Sequential Circuits Prophet 5. I guess the modern counterpart would be the Access Virus TI. I've had the AN module now for about 7 years and I'm still sometimes amazed by the sort of sounds you can get from it. But it's often by finding a new unexpected combination of parameters that creates something completely different. i.e. time spent programming and experimenting.

But you asked for a GM sound module and that certainly isn't one. I guess what I'm trying to say is that you may not have fully explored the capability of what you have, but you will have to delve into the programming a bit, but you may be surprised what you can achieve with what you've already got.

But then I'm often called a propellerhead!
JohnG.

[charlie]

Thanks John for bringing my delima into perspective. It is true that I do not know a lot about programming and changing parameters to get new and different sounds. It occurred to me when I was writing this thread just how little I knew about programming sound modules. Being primarily a guitarist and a late bloomer to the midi scene I am somewhat at a disadvantage. However, with some patience and fortitude, I believe I can teach myself what I need to know. Thanks for making me take a look in the mirror and depend more on my abilities than on buying the latest and greatest sound module, although I do have to admit there are some really cool sounding modules out there now...namely the Sonic Cell. But, I will give myself the chance to try and learn what others know...and who knows I might find another sound module right in the collection I currently own! LOL...thanks

Charlie

[JohnG]

You're most welcome.
A small tip if I may, just try to master one effect at a time. There's just so much editability (?) in some modules that it's very easy to be overwhelmed by the sheer scale of it. "I'll never learn all that stuff!" I remember well a project management course I went on 20 or more years ago. The trainer kept reminding us "how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time!". So maybe take the advice ovation gave, read the manual on drum programming and try and get your own "groove" into that little sucker. Persevere, if you can learn to play a guitar you can learn to program a drum machine. Listen to others, slow it down a bit if you can, listen to bass drum, snare, hi-hat open and closed etc then try to copy it. You'll soon get the hang of it. Don't forget to make back up copies as you go along. Come back to them the next day and have another go. You'll soon crack it.
All the best,
JohnG.
P.S. That SonicCell is a cracker isnt it?

[ovation99]

Surefire wise words from JohnG.
I was searching through my various manuals and found a "Quick Guide" for the QY700, which contains a lot of shortcut tips written in user friendly manner (this was something I downloaded from the web years ago) and I thought it might be useful for you.
AND after a 5 minute search of the web, I found that it's still available, so here's the link.....
www.yamahasynth.com/products/qy700/quickguide.pdf

I hope it's useful to you and enables you to delve deeper into the QY700.

All the best

[Tubbs]

I use sonic cell and i have just got my head around the workings of it....a magic sound module about best sums it up, and of course with the ability to use at gigs with the usb stick works good for me.

If its good enough for JohnG to endorse...then i am a happy man!!

[JohnG]

Only from a distance Tubbs, only from a distance! But when have Roland (Edirol) sound modules not been good? Have you started editing the sounds on it yet? I can't wait to get my hands on one and give it a good seeing to! I'll just have to be content with my SC8850 (plus various MUs PLGs etc.) whilst I build my new PC.

Antec Sonata III (Silent PC) case. bought
Intel E7200, 2.53 GHz, dual core CPU (45nM) bought
4GB DDR2 800 Corsair RAM on order
Mobo undecided Intel, Gigabyte, Asus, Foxconn? (P35)
2 x 500GB Samsung 7200rpm SATA drives. on order
VGA card, undecided, but nothing special. (no gaming)
CD/DVD burner? (probably NEC).
Display to be LG L206WU. ;D just decided after reading PC Pro.
Sound card ... hmmm! Any thoughts Shyam? What did you get in the end?
And Windoze XP (no Vista here please!) bought.

Any thoughts anyone?
Hope it's going to last as long as my current Win98 DAW has. I built that ... was it BC or AD?
JohnG.

[Tubbs]

Jul 10, 2008 12:53:59 GMT JohnG said:

Antec Sonata III (Silent PC) case.
Intel E7200 dual core CPU (45nM)
4GB DDR2 800 Corsair RAM
Mobo undecided Intel, Gigabyte, Asus, Foxconn? (P35)
2 x 500GB Samsung 7200rpm SATA drives.
VGA card, undecided, but nothing special. (no gaming)
CD/DVD burner? (probably NEC).
Display to be LG L206WU. ;D
Sound card ... hmmm!
And Windoze XP (no Vista here please!)

Any thoughts anyone?

My thoughts are envy John...it sounds amazing!!

I have started to do a bit of editing on the sonic cell.....slowly but surely......and i am getting there, it also comes with sonar le which, as you know, is a very good piece of software, it was all a bit trial and error at the start but i am enjoying it now.

[JohnG]

Hi Tubbs,
I've been saving to build a new DAW since last year. My partner got a bonus from the company she works for and made me a small gift earlier this year, bless her heart. So it's been research time for the last couple of months and now I'm just into the ordering process. I do hope its going to be a good'un. I plan to make a start with "virtual instruments" but my current PC is not up to it. So it has got to be the best I can get for the dosh I have.

I have a copy too of Sonar LE but have never really "got into it". I must though because the various VSTi modules will run under it. Have fun.
JohnG.

[Tubbs]

Jul 10, 2008 13:14:18 GMT JohnG said:

Hi Tubbs,
I've been saving to build a new DAW since last year. My partner got a bonus from the company she works for and made me a small gift earlier this year, bless her heart. So it's been research time for the last couple of months and now I'm just into the ordering process. I do hope its going to be a good'un. I plan to make a start with "virtual instruments" but my current PC is not up to it. So it has got to be the best I can get for the dosh I have.

The best of luck with it all mate....let us know how you get on!!

[simmo123]

Hi Gerry, i was interested in you comments on sonic cell re how to edit it etc, i bought mine a few months ago but haven't made a lot of progress at this stage, probably a little daunting for 'ole simmo' to get he's head around. All i am doing at the moment is editing the midi on the computer with the cakewalk le software that came with it then i pass it into the sonic cell module via usb cable then out of the s/cell & into one of the channel jack imputs on my yamaha EMX 640 pa head with a normal audio cable.next i take a speaker cable out of the speaker out jack at the rear of the pa unit & run it back into the computer via the audigy sound card, so in short what i have done is make a complete circuit from the computer to back into the computer via s/cell-pa head- sound card- computer.With the edited midi still on the screen i now open up an audio track underneath all the midi tracks put it into record mode so when i press the record button it makes a wav file at the same time as it is playing the midi plus it is picking up all of the quality sounds from the s/cell in the process, i usually get the recording volume for the audio track set correctly before starting to record by just playing the midi in normar mode & then adjusting it at the pa head until its correct. Iam probably going about it all the wrong way but because i turn the wav files into mp3s & play them on my mblaster unit (which i find is very easy to operate on my gigs) this seems to work for me. My problem is i am not sure how to use all of the big selection of great sounding instruments on the s/cell,i can access the module with the the screen that comes up on the computer but this is where it falls apart im not sure how to access the patches or even if it is possible to do it from the s/cell screen on the computer or do i have to do this on the module itself or possibly save all of the different sounds while a memory stick with the midis on is inserted into the module,any little hints would be appreciated or if you happen to be passing by one day there is always a coldie in the fridge & a spare bed to boot, i hope i haven't totally confused you i'm frightened to go back & read what i have typed because that will really throw me into a wobbly,
Best wishes, simmo ;D ;D

[charlie]

Hey JohnG and everyone else who's commented on this thread...thank you! I will download the QY700 pdf (thanks Ovation 99!). And John, a special thanks to you for your words of encouragement. Often times that's all people need to hear to get them going. That's why this site and you John make me very glad to be a member. As far as the Sonic Cell...well, what can you say. It's the closest thing to perfect for midi gigs. There does seem to be somewhat of a learning curve if you really want to exploit all the features the Sonic Cell has to offer, but that falls in line with the QY700 train of thought. I probably am only using 10% of its capability so there's a learning curve there too. Thanks again everybody!

[JazzCat]

I don't think there is any such animal out there that is strictly GM any more. GM compatable, yes but strictly GM, no. Even before you delve into tweaking the GM sounds you have You really do want to check out the multitude of sounds that you have at your disposal within the units you have. Dig the manuals out and look at the different banks of sounds and try them out. Don't limit yourself to the measly 127 sounds GM offers. It is a snap to change a patch in a sequencing program!

As for Ketron, I'm convinced that the sounds Ketron is producing, or at least has up till now, cater to older musicians playing to older crouds. You aren't going to find a load of Techno type sounds with the SD2 or 3.

Then again, you said 'Dance' music but not what style of 'Dance music' Seems everyone's opinion on what that means varies a heck of a lot. LOL!
Cat >^..^<

[JohnG]

Well Charlie this one's especially for you.

If you want to see how "the expert" does it, trundle over to youtube and take a look at how Michael Walthius alias keybdwizrd does it. There are all sorts of lessons and demos of interesting synths there too. I lust after an Access Virus TI polar. He seems to use a Yamaha Motif for his main keyboard and the Virus seems to feature a lot.

It proves that to play modern keyboard well what you need is short, fat fingers and to be in your fifties!!!!

Look at his demo on sequencing try the following link:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r45ZzmWDr4k
It seems to be intuitive for this guy i.e. one heck of a lot of practice.
One can learn so much from just watching this man.

But then that's just my opinion.
JohnG.
P.S. You'll notice after the main setup he just adds little bits at a time, doesn't try to make it too busy.
P.P.S. d**n it I just love that Virus! I wish I had his chops. Keep practising John, keep practising.

[Tubbs]

Jul 10, 2008 15:31:39 GMT simmo123 said:

Hi Gerry, i was interested in you comments on sonic cell re how to edit it etc, i bought mine a few months ago but haven't made a lot of progress at this stage, probably a little daunting for 'ole simmo' to get he's head around. All i am doing at the moment is editing the midi on the computer with the cakewalk le software that came with it then i pass it into the sonic cell module via usb cable then out of the s/cell & into one of the channel jack imputs on my yamaha EMX 640 pa head with a normal audio cable.next i take a speaker cable out of the speaker out jack at the rear of the pa unit & run it back into the computer via the audigy sound card, so in short what i have done is make a complete circuit from the computer to back into the computer via s/cell-pa head- sound card- computer.With the edited midi still on the screen i now open up an audio track underneath all the midi tracks put it into record mode so when i press the record button it makes a wav file at the same time as it is playing the midi plus it is picking up all of the quality sounds from the s/cell in the process, i usually get the recording volume for the audio track set correctly before starting to record by just playing the midi in normar mode & then adjusting it at the pa head until its correct. Iam probably going about it all the wrong way but because i turn the wav files into mp3s & play them on my mblaster unit (which i find is very easy to operate on my gigs) this seems to work for me. My problem is i am not sure how to use all of the big selection of great sounding instruments on the s/cell,i can access the module with the the screen that comes up on the computer but this is where it falls apart im not sure how to access the patches or even if it is possible to do it from the s/cell screen on the computer or do i have to do this on the module itself or possibly save all of the different sounds while a memory stick with the midis on is inserted into the module,any little hints would be appreciated or if you happen to be passing by one day there is always a coldie in the fridge & a spare bed to boot, i hope i haven't totally confused you i'm frightened to go back & read what i have typed because that will really throw me into a wobbly,
Best wishes, simmo ;D ;D

Thats pretty much what i am doing Terry mate, although for gigging i use the usb facility after converting my edited files to mp3 format....have you got sonar le set up with your sonic cell software? ie, have you selected sonic cell as your midi-device on sonar...if so you should be able to transport all the sonic cell sounds into sonar to edit.....i'll e-mail you mate with the details the way that i do it, which is not guaranteed to be the right way either, ;D.....gimme a couple of days to get back to ya....and keep that beer cold in the fridge for me!!

[charlie]

Hey Jazzcat,
Thanks for the reply. Yes, it is true there are many interpretations to what is called "dance music". I guess I should clarify somewhat. What I mean by "dance music" is basically tunes that have a danceable groove. It can be from the Motown era, 70's disco, 80's pop, 90's and current hip hop. Now, mind you, I'm no rapper extraordinaire but there are tunes I can cover...Ton Loc's Wild Thing and Funky Cold Medina, some Coolio...but mostly I stick to melodious hip hop if I do any...i.e. I like the way you move & Hey ya by Outcast. We usually have an audience ranging from their early 20's on up to 70's and it's a challenge to be able to have a little of something for everyone. My forte is Motown and Beach Music (The Drifters, The Tams, Chairmen of the Board).
The reason I started the thread regarding GM modules is because my software "Showplay 3" is structured around a GM template. I was really wanting to know what sound modules either GM based or with GM capability sounded best with regards to overall sound. (maybe that's what I should have said..lol) Although I would love to expand my knowledge in developing new sounds, at this point in my life with working a full time job as an electrical engineer, sending two girls to college, and working out in a local gym...I'm pretty stretched out. I know, that's not a good excuse, but it's the truth. However, hopefully there will come a time when I can get more into it. Right now, it's gigging steady on weekends, having fun, and giving my daughters most all the money...LOL

[charlie]

Hey JohnG,

Wow...that guy on the U-tube link is phenomenal. It almost sounded as if he was already hearing in his head the finished product before it was done. That in itself, is a gift. Throughout history, there have been composers with that gift. Now, Mozart I imagine probably heard entire symphonies in his head before he ever sat down in front of a piano. And, I suppose all musicians have the gift to some degree. Otherwise, there would never be any new tunes.Somebody has to be able to create from thin air. Hmmm, I hope I'm not straying from the subject matter, but it struck me as I was watching him compose on the spot that he was already hearing in his head what he wanted to play. Also, the order in which he began creating intrigues me too...drum pattern, bass pattern, key stabs, etc. I suppose that is standard practice...then develop the melody line last...But, I get your point....a little at a time learning...then put it all together. Thanks for that U-tube link and the subliminal inspiration I received regarding composing...that we all as musicians want to be able to compose and create and the more we do it....hopefully the better we get at it.