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Post by Emerald Midi on Mar 5, 2009 15:34:38 GMT
Thank you Kemo and Rosebud for your very supportive and understanding comments. They are very much appreciated.
This forum exists only because of its amazing members.
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Tiny
Senior Member
Posts: 1,032
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Post by Tiny on Mar 5, 2009 15:41:35 GMT
This forum exists only because of its amazing members.!!!!! ;D ;D .................................................................................................. I,ll Drink to that lad,s .n. lass,s keep up the great work Pat & lad,s  ;D Rgd,s Tiny 
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Post by Emerald Midi on Mar 5, 2009 15:50:06 GMT
Thanks Tiny |
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Post by stivsky on Mar 5, 2009 16:26:33 GMT
It is sad news to hear about Glenn. I did actually notice that a lot of the files were identical to a few of mine which I bought from Bandtrax but there again, after receiving this message I have compared files from Bandtrax this morning with a few other files I have bought from Song Galaxy and Musical Midi, and they are exactly the same as well. The only difference being that the volume levels are slightly different. Everything else in the files are exactly the same. Length, velocity, pitch bends etc....
I have been on the internet since 1987. One of the first things you could d/load were midi files. (and they took hours to d/load. lol)
My point being that way back then when there was absolutely no control over the internet by anybody at all, files were blatantly copied and re-badged as other groups files etc.. etc..
They are all still in the domain today twenty years later. I am always finding copies of copies of copies. They aren't hard to find.
Copyright is a very twisting term and can mean different things in different countries. Here in the U.K. as long as you have written copyright and your name on the work you have produced it is legally copyrighted. (How Stupid). No need to register anything at all.
I am certain that this will not be a very popular move for a lot of musicians on the forum as most musicians don't mind sharing anything but if we had to buy every midi' I am absolutely certain it would be the end of midi altogether on the net as it is already a dead technology on the professional side unless your patching units together and is now mostly for the ''home muso''. I haven't used midi in the studio since the mid nineties.
In my own opinion the copyright should always lie with the original composer of the song. NOT to people who make copies or slightly different version of a song. Here in the UK we have the Performing Rights Society (PRS). They turn up at venues randomly all over the country and write down the songs you perform. They then send this to head office and the royalties are distributed amongst the original writers of the tune, so you see it makes no difference at all where you get your backings from. They are only interested in the original composer/writer.
If a cover version is entered into the charts, it's the original writer who gets the dosh not the writer of the cover version. Does anyone ever check the bought files? Bet not. A lot of them have encryption in them that you can only find with certain software.
I am slightly cheesed at all this commotion about nothing. I know everything has to be legal but everyone is doing it. How many midis do you think are d/loaded everyday on pirate bay, btjunkie etc.... Thousands of midis in one small file, to be easily edited and then spewed back out on the net with a different name on it.
Midi is and always will be a pyramid game.
It is quite apparent on the net these days that the ''pay for it'' culture is growing more and more and the creative side of things is getting less & less, so why don't we all just get on with it!
There are already far too many doo gooders ruining the world today. In my eyes the only time any of the copyrighting issues would come into play is if the song is published or 'aired'. Then again legal beagles would make sure it was your original tune and no-one else's before printing or playing it. The person who wrote the cover only gets ''air pay''.
Midimart for me has to be the best midi site there has ever been on the net. Not just for the files but for clarity, ease of use, lack of advertisements, the forum etc....
Now just like everything else that becomes successful these days, someone comes along and puts the knife in.
Music law all over the world is one of the weakest for legalities & regulation unless your a big corporation doing big business. There are so many loop holes you can get away with it's ridiculous and when it becomes intercontinental no-one wants to know so I really don't know what all the big fuss is about.
Yes these other sites may have created these files but at the end of the day, they are only copies of the original format.
As for Glenn, I am sorry it has ended up this way for him as he is just one of hundreds of thousands of people who do this.
If we all adhered to authority & squealed everytime someone didn't play to the rules the world would be (and is getting) a very sad sad place to live in.
I would also just like to ask what happens to the £10 fee?
Cheesed Off
Stivy
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Post by mikemac4344 on Mar 5, 2009 17:37:10 GMT
In the spirit of full disclosure:
Cat and John have been leaving my name out of this since I've not really been a part of this community. I was discussing with Cat a similar situation with a file of my own last November or so and she told me about this situation and so I pitched in. I've been involved in the midi world for 20 years and I've written professionally on the subject. This is just the second time that I've seen this level of wholesale plagiarism. Interestingly, Cat stumbled upon one file where the other MidiMart and the other big-time plagiariser that we know of both stole from the same source or one stole from the other.
This plagiarism is actually pretty clumsy and easy to detect. The perpetrator -- whether Glenn or his staff of sequencers -- simply removed the vocal track, changed the order of the remaining tracks, removed the original copyright information and inserted MidiMart instead. In a few cases, events were shifted by a tick or two. The files were otherwise identical -- note for note, bend for bend, controller for controller. The process for detecting the files was easy...select a file at random, open known files, and compare. If we limited ourselves to 5 minutes per file, we had about a 70% hit ratio (we were able to find the file that had been stolen from in 70% of the cases). When we took more time, the ratio increased to closer to 90%. The sample population was large enough (140-150 files that last time I saw a count) that the results can be reliably inferred for the whole MM library. Of the 6000 or so MM "originals", I suspect 4200 (70%) are easily proven to be plagiarised and that 5400 (90%) can be so proven with a little more effort. I suspect that the remaining 600 come from sources that are simply harder to find.
Please make no mistake: this isn't about "midi police". This type of stuff is a black-eye to musicians in general and MIDI in specific. Some fine musicians have been sued and paid large settlements for the unwitting use of copyrighted materials. Cat has been active for many years in organizations that seek to protect users from being unfairly targeted in lawsuits, to protect users from unduly burdensome licensing fees, from copyright laws that equate midi files with mechanical performances. I'm personally greatful that so many good people give of themselves for the greater musical community and am offended when one or two people besmirch the rest of us seeking fame or fortune by stealing from others.
Mike
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Post by mikemac4344 on Mar 5, 2009 17:58:16 GMT
<snip>As for Glenn, I am sorry it has ended up this way for him as he is just one of hundreds of thousands of people who do this. If we all adhered to authority & squealed everytime someone didn't play to the rules the world would be (and is getting) a very sad sad place to live in. I would also just like to ask what happens to the £10 fee? <snip> I disagree that this he is just one of hundreds of thousands of people oing this. MidiMart is taking a file, removing the original copyright owner's name and inserting their own and then turning around and charging for the privilege of downloading the file and asserting that they are the original creators. In 20 years, I've only seen that happen one other time on anything resembling this scale and the other individual was really "only" guilty of hundreds of files. This differs dramatically from all the downloading that goes on. The vast majority of these songs can be be found for free by very competent sequencers who generously give of their time. As to the £10 fee, I believe it's £15 now? I don't know how many people have paid money to Glenn but I have to think the total amount taken in is pretty substantial. Whether he'll refund the monies is anyone's guess. I don't think anyone would knowingly pay the fee with the knowledge that they were buying access to files which are not what they have been represented to be. As the writer points out, the files can be downloaded -- rightly or wrongly -- from dozens of other sources. Were it not for MM, at least the copyright info would be intact. I think the world is a "sad sad place to live in" when the "squealer" is villified and the perpetrator given a pass. There was a lot of heartache that went into the discussion about going public. The forum admins made the decision to not associate themselves with the mess and I frankly think that was courageous. |
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bri
Full Member
Posts: 662
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Post by bri on Mar 5, 2009 18:23:27 GMT
I confess myself shocked and amazed. I paid my ten quid +, although I've never really used the site for downloading. I just thought it would be handy (and figured it would go a short way towards helping Glenn with his considerable expenses) if I ever needed a midifile. Mostly, I've just put a few of my own productions of midifiles on there. I can't believe this.
To think, I asked Glenn how he produces so many midifiles so quickly, when it takes me at least two days to produce one...and that's if I'm in the mood to do it in the first place. He came out with a long convoluted explanation as to how, if you regard a song as being three minutes long and the midifile has six tracks, then that's 18 minutes to produce a midifile, plus, say, a couple of minutes to brush any discrepancies up. No mention of any team. I feel betrayed.
Ah well. You live and learn.
Hope it does not affect this forum in any way. Long may it reign. I would hate to lose it as, I suspect, would many others.
Take care
Bri
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Post by georgiemanutd on Mar 5, 2009 18:46:14 GMT
I just read the messages and am quite new to the site.What i can say without a doubt is i have dealt with Jazzcat and found her to be very helpful and honest.She hinted that something was in the air and I for one would like to thank her and the other members for sharing this information with us.
Georgiemanutd.
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Post by weeo on Mar 5, 2009 19:18:36 GMT
I'm shocked as well.However,the evidence seems compelling.A sad time for all concerned.
I've made many friends and aquaintances through the forum and would hate to lose touch with them .They have all been hard working,friendly and very helpful.Long may it continue.
Many thanks to Jazzcat and John and their team,it couldn't have been easy for them.
If i can help in any way,please do not hesitate to ask.
Regards Eddie (weeo)
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JazzCat
Full Member
E=Fb Musician's Theory of Relativity
Posts: 709
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Post by JazzCat on Mar 5, 2009 20:39:11 GMT
To think, I asked Glenn how he produces so many midifiles so quickly, when it takes me at least two days to produce one...and that's if I'm in the mood to do it in the first place. He came out with a long convoluted explanation as to how, if you regard a song as being three minutes long and the midifile has six tracks, then that's 18 minutes to produce a midifile, plus, say, a couple of minutes to brush any discrepancies up.
------------------------
Well Bri, that is further evidence to me that Glenn is no sequencer and is indeed the the plagiarizer, and not his so called 'team'.
He has said many things to many people apparently, and if it were all compiled the circumstancial evidence, that he couldn't sequence his way out of a wet paper bag, would be overwhelming.
I had nagging suspicions on a couple things he said in the past and even called him on one once, but I just blew by it because I trusted him. One thing that also told me he is no sequencer is that P.O. S. program he recommends... that Jazz sequencer program. Talk about useless, and no way in H.E. double hocky sticks could ANYONE on this freakin' planet sequence a 3 minute, 6 track tune in 18 minutes, plus a couple to clean up discrepencies.
You could with an arranger keyboard, ( and it would be quite obvious the file was created with one) but from his statement to you, that isn't what he did.
More and more it shows that he flat lied and conned everyone for years and years.
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Post by doricvision on Mar 5, 2009 20:45:57 GMT
I must admit I've had my suspicions for some time now and I really feel saddened that this has turned out to be the case.I think Jazzcat ,John and the team deserve our grateful thanks for their hardwork ,honesty and integrity in dealing with this in a sensitive and responsible manner. Like other forum members, I was stunned to read the email and my first thought was losing touch with all the many friends all over the world that I had met thro' Midimart. Long may we continue to communicate and support each other
Regards Bigmike
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Post by Tubbs on Mar 5, 2009 20:56:15 GMT
Just reading some of the replies has shown what great members you all are, as you can imagine we were all shocked when told of the situation, we are privileged to have Jazzcat, JohnG and Mike who have worked so hard in uncovering this deceit, and i would like to personally thank them. With Pat and the great team we have, and most importantly, you good people, we can move onwards and still carry on being the best forum. Cheers guys...you are all amazing. |
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Post by JohnG on Mar 5, 2009 21:08:32 GMT
Hi all, Several points need to be made here. First of all copyright is taken on trust, our world works and only works if people are honest. How do you prove you have made an original creation? Think about it. The only way to prove it, is to compare it with EVERY other piece of music ever written. Ridiculous! Song authors do register their products. Here in Germany we have an organisation called GEMA. When we are performing we have to note down on the forms provided what song and song number we are using from their database. Check it out. Most legal MIDI file producers have to register and pay royalties to the copyright owner. Actually very rarely the composer. More often a big organisation like Hal Leonard. So each time one of their files is copied on, they lose revenue against the fees they pay. The copyright always does lie with the composer and they usually pass it or sell it to an agent, just as a book writer can pass on the rights to make a film from the book. Then another copyright is granted to the singer or group that interprets it and sells it as a recording. They usually pass that to a recording company who collects the royalties on their behalf. The last is one form of mechanical copyright. MIDI files fall under the mechanical copyright too. Sure, files have been swapped across the Internet for years. Burglaries have been happening for years too. It would be interesting to know how you managed to get on the Internet as early as 1987. Which ISP did you use? The Internet backbone was only opened up to commercial services in the US in 1988. If we are talking UK then my belief is that Demon was one of the first and they didn't start until June 1992. I started using them in 1993. Please explain.There is nothing to stop you sharing files as before or from paying your fee and joining Glenn's site and downloading what you want. All we are doing is notifying the members of the forum that what they are getting are not originals but copies of commercial files. If they choose to continue using the files so be it. The fact is that the forum owner and the administrators feel that they cannot be party to supporting the wholesale copying and the fraudulent misrepresentation that is occurring. But I don't wish to put words into their mouths. All Cat and her team did was to make the forum owner and his administrators aware of what was found. The forum will continue as a separate entity, it has a life of its own. I am certainly going to continue to put my full weight behind it. Sorry guys I'm only ten stone!  Maybe some other way can be found of passing on legitimately copyright free files. The reason I feel cheated is because I paid my fee and then had the renewal just taken from my account. Since I was about to renew anyway I didn't create a fuss but the full fee rather than the renewal fee was taken. I was told that the fees went to purchase the use of studio time to create the files. Clearly, judging by the proportion of copied files that have been made, this is not true. I am still awaiting a reply to a second mail I wrote to Glenn asking him to identify just a few of the files he personally sequenced. Jazzcat has already explained the background. That message was posted on the 18th of February. Best regards, JohnG. P.S. If I have any of my facts on copyright wrong please let me know. I don't claim to be any kind of expert here. |
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Post by Emerald Midi on Mar 5, 2009 21:08:43 GMT
May I just say to everyone again that the forum is remaining as it is and no one is loosing touch with anyone. It will still be here for everyone to chat as normal and share experiences and files together. The only difference is that we are no longer connected in anyway with Glenn and his website.
Thanks to all of your for your continued support both here and privately.
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Post by mikemac4344 on Mar 5, 2009 22:07:56 GMT
<snip> To think, I asked Glenn how he produces so many midifiles so quickly, when it takes me at least two days to produce one...and that's if I'm in the mood to do it in the first place. He came out with a long convoluted explanation as to how, if you regard a song as being three minutes long and the midifile has six tracks, then that's 18 minutes to produce a midifile, plus, say, a couple of minutes to brush any discrepancies up. No mention of any team. I feel betrayed.<snip> LOL. This sounds so-familiar. 7 or 8 years ago I had the same exact statements about another site. That guy was putting out 3, 4, 5 midis a day where I sometimes took 80 hrs to create something. It was humbling to say the least. Then, it turns out that they were plagiarised...a little of this file, a little of that and voila! A midi file in 45 minutes to include a quick cat nap! |
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Post by simmo123 on Mar 5, 2009 22:47:40 GMT
Hi everyone,you can count "Ole Simmo" in he aint goin no-where,he's in for the long haul, ;D ;D
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Post by Emerald Midi on Mar 5, 2009 23:31:39 GMT
Thank you Simmo, we appreciate your support. It has been said before and it will be said again ---- the members f this forum are amazing! |
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oldsage
Senior Member
oldsage still boppin,still rockin,( slowly)
Posts: 1,344
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Post by oldsage on Mar 6, 2009 0:26:13 GMT
Hi Pat /Jazz /JohnG ,i am very shocked!! as for years Glenn always insisted that all files must not have any copyrights on them,when we sent them in!! i know i sent in thousands!!!! including .kar files (which were never put on site).I have no way of looking for copyright stamps etc,so left it up to Glenn to check!! i Know many of us felt when Glenn introduced the membership fee!! we were not very comfortable with it,as we all contributed quite a lot of files,and felt we were paying for our own!! I truly hope,this fine forum will grow in strength from this!!,and the many fine bonds of friendship forged over many years will continue!!.If it was not for this Forum,and one very special friend!! i would not be singing now,or even playing the keyboard!!.So i say to you all,do not despair!! everyone here is a friend!! we are all musicians!! and a finer bunch you will never find anywhere!!! best wishes...............Steve
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Post by rosybud1956 on Mar 6, 2009 1:32:03 GMT
My question now is:- Will we be able to set up a midi access thread again where we can have access to good shared files we may find and wish to share? I will contribute where possible. I could never understand why forum members were not given free access to any 'Non MM' midi files that were available. Cheers Lyn
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Post by shyamwestwind on Mar 6, 2009 4:51:55 GMT
Hi Everyone,
I didn't realize that the subject in question was aired in the Forum , so I sent a PM to Pat, expressing my anguish at this unfortunate turn of events. I am truly, saddened and upset , learning about these infringements but I feel more hurt than wronged.
I always felt Glenn was a honourable man and I was of the opinion that he was looking into the copyright issues and would settle all the issues soon. I am curious as to why Glenn hasn't responded to all this and why he is keeping mum ? We do deserve a response from him. I am not concerned about the fees paid to him , but I will feel hurt if he doesn't say something for himself
I am, bascaly, a singer, who, simply and honestly, just loves to sing and be happy and make others happy and, very truthfully, am not involved in searching for copyrighted material to accompany me. I will and can sing with whatever sequences or accompaniment tracks that sound good to me and it doesn't matter how perfect or close to the original they are. I guess I'm more of a singer than a creaive musician .
I am very happy that our Forum is still a family. We are such a lovable bunch of mature musicians,who are sensitised to the world. We have the maturity and ability to discuss and argue and share our views, and I do wish to hear Glenn talk for himself. We don't need to trample on him without knowing his responses.
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