MIDIMART A POST OFFICE ???

[shyamwestwind]

I wish to be enlightened!!
I find quite a lot of requests for MIDIS being met by e-mailed replies direct to the member.
If this is because of copyright complications, I am still trying to figure out how an original composer of the midi will exercise his copyright on contributions made to MidiMart. Do bear in mind we are discussing MIDI tracks and not complete songs.
Even if a good explanation can be given for this copyright issue, it would be interesting to know why MidiMart is acting like a Post Office, recieveng and forwarding mail.

[FoothillsSound]

Shyam,

MidiMart is not "receiving and forwarding email."

Members can access each others email via their profiles. What members send to each other directly via email is beyond the control of MidiMart.

If a staff member replies to a request for a file, I think you will find that the person requesting the file is provided a link to the file on the main site, not sent the file via email.

I feel MidiMart's stand on copyright infringement is beyond reproach.

Hope this clears things up for you.

[shyamwestwind]

I got back to this post just to mention that I'm not holier than the others ! I've had some very good Midis sent to me too.
Is it not possible to upload these files via MidiMart ? How does the copyright issue come in. How will MidiMart infringe any such laws ?
There are quite a few files being sent across by e-mail , files that other MM members would love to have and use. At times like this I feel llike the retired pigeon looking in at the Post Office. !!!!

[FoothillsSound]

"Hi Alan
I hope I'm not seen as a dim wit, but I really cannot understand this copyright issue.
Let me put across what I see.
Lets take a song " Everthing I do" by Bryan Adams. The original song is very rightly copyrighted to the song writer, composer, singer.
I understand that if I want to sing this song, I'll need to pay whatever fees that have to be paid towards the copyright licensee. If , ofcourse, the owner of the venue where I am performing, has the requisite licence, then I can sing that song or any other cover song AGREED.
Now you and I and many many other musicians decide to put the backing track together in the form of a MIDI file. We put together some like sounding musical sounds to create a MIDI file of this Bryan Adams song.
Please tell me if I have to apply for a copyright licence to do this? If so, why ?
Do all the pay sites pay fees for the Midis they have, and which they charge us for ?
Another intriguing question is how will you know whether a particular MIDI file is copyrighted or not ?
I really want to learn about this and though this is sent to you through PM, please feel free to move it to MM Post Office thread so others like me can get these doubts cleared .
Thank you Alan."

Shyam, there are many on the forum more qualified than myself for answering your sincere, valid questions. There have been several threads posted on the topic. Member John G replied to you previously in a very succint manner. A link to the thread containing John G's reply is here.

[shyamwestwind]

Frankly, Alan, I read JohnG's detailed letter and understood the mplications only now. It is serious if we are taken to task, but tell me how am I to ascertain whether my Midi file is copyrighted or not ?
It seems to me that all Midis apart from those on pay sites are illegal... is this true ?
If I purchase a Migi file does that permit me to sing using that file and if so, how am I licensed to do so ?
If all sites with free to use Midi files do not have a copyright licence, how are they permitted to function without one ?
Can a performer (a singer like myself) obtain a blanket licence at a fee for my public performance of copyrighted songs ?
I really would like to learn more, though I guess very many of us Midi Enthusiasts will sing on, unmindingly oblivious to the possibilities of legal action.
Has anyone come across situations where action has been initiated against such "offenders" ?
Can you, JohnG and Glenn throw some light on this ? Complicated .... mind boggling and disturbing , but can we atleast share our knowledge for the sake of knowing?

[thingyy]

Read the copyright info on the professional midis web site.

[thingyy]

Some folks strip the copyright info out of the file.There are some little clues hidden in the file by some pros eg. non audible notes in drum tracks.
The best way to determine if a file is copyright is by the quality of the file the system ex velocites, gate time, controller use etc etc.. and non fade out endings

[gibbo]

Hey Shyam!
Surely you're joking? Why do we keep having this same discussion repeatedly?
I'm tempted to ask, (tongue-in-cheek, of course)
"Why don't you shout a little louder? Maybe you can attract the midi-police to your door!"
This debate has been ongoing since the first midis were posted back in the dim, dark past.
Maybe one day we'll all be regulated, licensed, controlled, governed, enslaved, beaten into submission etc by some Big Brother Art Department but why would anyone seek it out?
My advice is; learn the laws governing this subject, protect yourself as best you can, keep your own counsel, stop attracting the sharks, leave sleeping dogs lie, and finally, never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig!
Cheers, Dave

[thingyy]

Stephen Kearns from Tryco checks most sites and files and has made a few close down.Midi Cad was a UK based site that vanished overnight a few years ago.Now that's midi police!!

[paulhcctt]

thingyy said:

Stephen Kearns from Tryco checks most sites and files and has made a few close down.Midi Cad was a UK based site that vanished overnight a few years ago.Now that's midi police!!

That guy reminds me of a skanger in a '88 Micra looking for a 1.2 million accident claim.

[JohnG]

Hi Shyam,

Positively my last post on this subject.

The files created by MidiMart (for which they pay a copyright fee to create and make available) are licensed to gold members to use. Check the copyright rules that MidiMart publishes on the main site for their conditions of use. They also refuse, correctly, to host any other Midi files that have or may have copyright.

MIDI files As well as a statement within the header of the midi file, meta data is usually incorporated within the file that marks it's originating source. I do this with the files I create. Sometimes these files end up getting copied and put on web sites, often in all innocence, by people who do not understand copyright laws or who mistakenly believe that all midi files should be free.

As far as the law is concerned it is up to each individual to make sure that he or she is obeying the law. If you are using a file it is your responsibility to make sure that you are using it legally. This means either that it was made for free distribution i.e. it bears no signs whatsoever of copyright marks or, better still, has a statement from the arranger within the file that it may be freely used. If it bears copyright information within it, then it's your responsibility to contact the copyright owner and pay him or her an appropriate fee to use the file. In the UK for the average pop song this is usually about 4 or 5 pounds. If you cannot get the owner's permission or feel the fee is too high for you then you should cease to use the file.

To do anything else opens the individual to the risk of prosecution.
It is up to the copyright owner to apply for the law to be enforced if he or she finds their rights being violated. And they do. One example has been previously cited.

I hope this clarifies the matter for you.
All the best
JohnG.

[shyamwestwind]

Gibbo its you that must be joking not I !!! Do hear the buzz and watch the news. I see nothing obtrusive in finding out facts and discussing ways (or find loopholes) to saty safe. You can choose to lie back and relax behind the veil of ignorance and watch the "unlucky" get cuffed and say "Why bother .... I'm free"
thingyy, I'm glad to see your awareness of actuals happening around us. There were many more such incidences but I'll choose not to detail them and inject any more depression than what I already seemed to have done.
No one wants to voice any opinion , no one wants to change anything, to help find solutions. It is indeed a selfish world and if you choose to sit in your shell, I will let you be, but I will shout if I feel that I can make some difference. We need support from wherever, to ljustify what we are doing. We love the songs we want to sing and play and the original artistes should be made to appreciate that we are helping them to popularise their creations. If a small fee has to be paid, so be it.
What we need is, firstly, a few FACTS so we know what we are talking about and thats exactly what this thread and others before this were meant for.
Arent we all musicians, composers, singers, lyricists in this Forum ? We are here to help our friends and community , so lets discuss
Sorry, gibbo, if I come across a little abrupt but I have taken up many issues on various topics ,openly in conferences and the likes and won some and lost some debates. Do say what you have to, without fear. If we fear to tread on water we can never feel how wet is.

[shyamwestwind]

Sorry to add on, but it would be nice to have JohnG, foothillssoundand Glenn on this debate.
Pat, as Forum Admin, I would like your input on this debate. If you feel this is getting too sensitive or obtrusive, just pull the thread off and I promise to post in only on the weather around the world, places of tourist interest, the share markets etc etc. Sorry,guys but I will open my heart and talk and I dont think I talk nonsense.

[shyamwestwind]

JohnG, that was really valuable information and clarifies many doubts - THANK YOU !!!
Please dont stay away from the debate, John - I absolutely agree its a sore pint with some but if we do get our Blood Pressure up , discussing a REAL VALID ISSUE, , why not ?
Please JohnG, stay awhile even if it bores you to talk.
S M I L E Everyone, we are not singing for a funeral !!!!!

[FoothillsSound]

Shyam,

I feel I am in/following this debate/discussion.

As there are others w/ much more expertise than myself, my contribution was to reitterate their all ready well stated comments on the topic.

[gibbo]

Shyam,
I don't understand your response at all! What the heck do you mean? You seem to have completely misunderstood my post. What I was getting at is this; you're bringing up an issue that has already been extensively written about and widely debated on music and midi forums for at least the last 10 years. Check out this story "Where Have All the Midis Gone" following one such extensive debate waaaay back in 1998: www.net4tv.com/voice/Story.cfm?storyID=553
(there's also extensive links to copyright issues on this site).
We've also had this discussion here on MidiMart a couple of times before.
Your statement that "No one wants to voice any opinion , no one wants to change anything, to help find solutions. It is indeed a selfish world and if you choose to sit in your shell, I will let you be, but I will shout if I feel that I can make some difference." etc etc doesn't sound "abrupt" to me, it sounds self-righteous. Especially when you're saying that to someone who has been an active part of this debate for the last 15 years.
I suggest you re-read what I actually said in my first post above. It's not that I don't have an opinion about it, it's just that I've already stated it and haven't changed my mind. We'll have to agree to disagree.
Cheers, Dave.

[JohnG]

Hey Dave,

You are, of course, perfectly correct this stuff has been gone over ad infinitum.
Your link to the site "where have all the midis gone" was an extremely useful one. Thank you.

Even though I wasn't involved in that debate many years ago I have, I believe, been subjected to corporate theft of my material in the past (not music or midis). Of course I'm in no position financially to take on a large organisation. Naturally then I'm somewhat subjective in my views.

However, I would like to say that I have no objections to posting answers on a forum such as this one to people asking questions from a position of innocence. Or indeed in a simplified way, some of the original text is very long winded and perhaps overly complex. But then I'm in the communications business being a trainer (now) by profession. One finds that one has to keep repeating information as new generations come to a subject. Education is a wonderful thing and it certainly helps when someone with experience, such as yourself, can offer an insight from their past or appropriate URLs.

In short may I respectfully request that you don't abandon us and that you continue to add to our knowledge as you have done so many times in the past? Please? It is important that people understand that composers and arrangers have rights too. It is worth while reiterating that information.
I do hope that you agree,
Please bear (or is it bare?) with us,
Best regards,
JohnG.

[shyamwestwind]

Dave dearest, there is a contradiction here and I would like you to comment.
You wrote:
"Maybe one day we'll all be regulated, licensed, controlled, governed, enslaved, beaten into submission etc by some Big Brother Art Department but why would anyone seek it out"

"My advice is; learn the laws governing this subject, protect yourself as best you can, keep your own counsel, stop attracting the sharks"

"leave sleeping dogs lie, and finally, never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig! "

To me, it simply means the issue is best left alone. I appreciate that you have been active in this debate for fifteen years. Why then are you advocating "leaving the sleeping dogs to lie " ??

Do tell me where I have misread you?

[thingyy]

Let it rest yaaaaawn.

[JohnG]

Hi Shyam,

Maybe it's that Dave (Gibbo) doesn't want attention drawn to the site. In the past, as you can read from the URL he posted, many midi sites disappeared under threat of legal action. He doesn't want this, our precious MidiMart site, to go the same way. I don't want to put words into your mouth Dave so please correct me if I've got the wrong impression. However I do believe that Glenn and his merry men (and ladies too of course ;D) have got the issue well in hand by creating midis under licence and disallowing midis of dubious provenance.

Of course what will get this site noticed is not postings about the law of copyright but the midi files themselves. It's quite straightforward to create a spider or a bot (a program that trawls the web) looking for files of a particular origin or type. The files themselves will be searched for certain telltale signs and the originator notified who may then take action as they think fit.

However, I think we need to allow a little "cool" to enter into this discussion in order not to mar the peace and tranquility usually on display here. So may I make a personal request for a truce?

On an extremely positive note, did you know that once a piece of music is 200 years old it is no longer the subject of copyright? So you can sequence Bach and others of his era with no fear that he will return and prosecute you. Now isn't that comforting?

Shyam, are you now happy (perhaps the wrong word) that you understand basically the laws that cover copyright and the actions that you should take to make sure you're working within the law as it now stands?

Hey, peace man!
Best regards,
JohnG.