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Post by Emerald Midi on Mar 4, 2009 22:14:54 GMT
Below is a copy of a PM and e-mail sent to all forum members. Dear Forum Members,
This PM (which has been sent to every registered member) is to advise you that the administrators and moderators of the MidiMart forum have decided to terminate our relationship to the website: www.midimart.net , owned and operated by Glenn Humber, and why it is necessary (for legal and moral reasons) to break off all relationships with that site.
It was hoped that any issues could have been resolved privately before arriving at this unfortunate stage but despite every effort being exhausted no solution has been found. So, in order to protect the integrity of the forum, and ensure its members are made aware of the irregularities discovered, we are left with no alternative other than to go public with our findings, findings that will be especially significant to those of you who have paid for or are considering paying for access to midi files at: www.midimart.net
Below you will find a message from JazzCat that describes what has been discovered and why we have taken this step.
Pat. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dear Forum Members, Last September I stumbled upon something which really shocked me. I was comparing two MIDI files for use and discovered that one file was a plagiarized copy of the other. All that had been changed was that the 'melody' line had been removed and the "(C)1996 Edirol Italy" copyright information had been replaced with "Copyright (C) MidiMart.net". Apart from that the files were identical note for note, pitch bend for pitch bend, tempo for tempo and so on. Not just "the same" but absolutely identical down to the exact timing, velocities, note duration, expression, and pitch and modulation values. So surprised was I that I sent the two files to JohnG and asked for his opinion. After careful examination he came to the same conclusion, that there was no way that the two files could end up accidentally the same. One was, in his opinion, a plagiarized copy of the other. Following this discovery I decided to do some more research and rapidly came up with further examples of Midimart or Minvec files which were copies of commercial files. To date we have discovered, by random sampling, more than 120 plagiarized files on the MidiMart Main Site. The sampling has been done fairly randomly and we have discovered that over 80 per cent of the files we have looked at have proved to be plagiarized. There are roughly 7,500 sites on the Main Site, there is a small proportion that are members contributions. We estimate over 5,000 files are MidiMart files. If 80 percent of those are copies of commercial files, then more than 4,000 files are plagiarized. This assumes that our sampling and other assumptions are correct. Any questions regarding details or evidence of this may be directed to me, via a private message. Some weeks ago I decided to contact the forum to put my findings and evidence to Pat. JazzCat. ----------------------------------------------- In view of the evidence found by JazzCat, and the acknowledgement of JohnG of her findings, we believe it is necessary to inform all of the forum members that any "MidiMart" file that you may have, or be using for gigging, may be a plagiarized copy of a commercial copyright file. Should you be caught using this file in public then you may be laying yourself open to prosecution by the original MIDI file owner.Pat ===================================== |
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Post by bennishinely on Mar 4, 2009 22:36:22 GMT
thank god-i joined but couldnt get no midis--didnt get the password or something---so suppose some thing's was meant to be
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Post by bigal4000 on Mar 4, 2009 22:37:47 GMT
so whats happening about this all now?
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Post by Emerald Midi on Mar 4, 2009 22:50:50 GMT
so whats happening about this all now? Right now this forum continues as before, the only difference is (and for the reasons already stated) we no longer have ties with Glenn or his website. "midimart" exists only in our URL because that is how I originally set it up. In time this will change. Please bear in mind I can only talk about the forum, I have no idea of Glenn's future plans for his website or how he intends to address these very serious allegations. |
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Post by finelytuned on Mar 5, 2009 1:04:50 GMT
From my prospective, I've always taken the Midimart files with a grain of salt. As far as plagiarized files....Wouldn't you agree that no one should rely on anything being original, unless the creator/ inventor can stand up and prove it to be so? Why must anyone be the midi police? or mp3 download police? Where will it end? IT WON'T. With that said, I'm going to continue to use midimart but use decretion in picking and choosing files. That's what we all should have been doing all along anyways, right?
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Post by mikemac4344 on Mar 5, 2009 1:46:01 GMT
With all due respect, this is disturbing and it is something we should all care about. Plagiarism hurts the original creator who is deprived of income and control of his or her intellectual rights. Plagiarism hurts the unknowing downloader who uses a copyrighted work and opens him- or herself up for a lawsuit--several dozen have been sued in the US for unwittingly using copyrighted works). What MM is doing is illegal and immoral. As to "midi police", if musicians don't police themselves should we leave it to the lawyers?
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Post by Emerald Midi on Mar 5, 2009 8:06:09 GMT
From my prospective, I've always taken the Midimart files with a grain of salt. As far as plagiarized files....Wouldn't you agree that no one should rely on anything being original, unless the creator/ inventor can stand up and prove it to be so? Why must anyone be the midi police? or mp3 download police? Where will it end? IT WON'T. With that said, I'm going to continue to use midimart but use decretion in picking and choosing files. That's what we all should have been doing all along anyways, right? I have received many messages from people who are deeply hurt and horrified to learn they have been paying good money to access Midi files that now appear to have been deliberately copied and altered for financial gain. If you feel plagiarising is OK then by all means do what your conscience tells you. Our findings and the subsequent publishing of them will only effect those who have a certain amount of integrity and self respect and will not concern those who apparently have no regard for the law what is (allegedly) happening here. As the owner of this forum it is down to me to see that it isn't seen to be associating with anything that might contravene copyright laws - - if the providers of this forum (ProBoard) thought it was in violation of its rules and regulations they would have no option but to shut us down. |
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Post by Emerald Midi on Mar 5, 2009 8:07:11 GMT
With all due respect, this is disturbing and it is something we should all care about. Plagiarism hurts the original creator who is deprived of income and control of his or her intellectual rights. Plagiarism hurts the unknowing downloader who uses a copyrighted work and opens him- or herself up for a lawsuit--several dozen have been sued in the US for unwittingly using copyrighted works). What MM is doing is illegal and immoral. As to "midi police", if musicians don't police themselves should we leave it to the lawyers? Well said Mike. |
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Post by JohnG on Mar 5, 2009 8:13:34 GMT
Hi all,
As I have been part of the team, I thought I should put my tuppence in here. Especially to answer finelytuned's point. To some very small extent I agree. I think most of us from time to time do some copying of good bits from other people's work. Drum tracks are a case in point. I know very few musicians who create their own from scratch. I tend to use the ones supplied with Cakewalk pro audio and others that I bought some while back.
However there is, at least in my opinion, a huge difference in borrowing ideas from others and the wholesale copying of, what looks like, more than 4000 MIDI files. Especially when one overwrites the other person's copyright and claims the work as one's own. That is not just theft, but also misrepresentation. When one then charges other people to access those copied, misrepresented files ... well actually words fail me! But "fraud" is a word that comes to mind. Not on the same scale as the current financial crisis, but fraud nonetheless.
As for the "MIDI police" allegation, after finding one file quite by chance, a few more were sampled just to see whether it was simply a "one off". The more that were looked at, the more that were found to be copies. Although well over 100 files were eventually looked at, just a tiny proportion of the total, it was felt that we all needed to know whether just a few had crept in, as you say "not unusual".
What was discovered was that more than 80% turned out to have been copied. The percentage could be much higher. The fact that we couldn't prove that a particular file was a copy usually just meant that a commercial file wasn't available to do a comparison with. We did not set out to be MIDI police nor do we consider ourselves so.
Mikemac, thank you for your points, very well made. If the creators of these commercial files lose their source of revenue, they will stop making files except for their own use. Who is the loser then? Well actually all of us who use the files for gigging, but who don't possess the ability to sequence our own files. And this isn't just theory. Several companies who made good files have given up because of theft.
It is really up to all of us to take great care about the copying of artist's or technicians material in whatever form. If people can't make a living from it then they will give up and become bankers. We all now know where that leads!
If anybody wants to ask any questions of detail I know that JazzCat is willing to take them on a PM basis (hope you don't mind me posting that here JazzCat?) and so am I on a PM basis also.
Best regards,
JohnG.
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Post by JohnG on Mar 5, 2009 10:23:24 GMT
Just to add a few words to what I have said above.
I believe I left one point that finelytuned made unanswered:
It is difficult, if not impossible, to "prove" that a file you have created is original. Even George Harrison allegedly copied another tune. Probably inadvertently. Was it "My Sweet Lord"?
It is fairly easy to do the opposite if you have a reasonable knowledge of MIDI sequencing and a good sequencing program and, of course, the file from which it was copied!
Actually the first file was discovered by just listening, which raised suspicions. Detailed examination proved the point.
Therefore most of us take "on trust" the word of someone who says that it is all their own work. And so we should, for in the vast majority of cases it is so.
However, in the case of MIDI files, you may be making a fair point. Most sequencers I know will put something in the file about its origins because they take pride in their work. If there is no evidence of authorship it may be a copied file. (Please note "may be".) And now we know that the appearance of a copyright message in a file doesn't "prove" that the original author put it there.
Regards,
JohnG.
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Post by weegeo on Mar 5, 2009 10:55:49 GMT
I am at a complete loss as to what to say, i have always told newcomers to this music business that it is a `dirty game` i thought that with all my years in this business i wouldn`t be caught again, but i trusted without question and this is my reward. I am not as technical as most of the rest of you guys but i thought i could trust the site as i am `paying my membership`I can only imagine what is going on in glenn`s head he must feel like the little kid that has been caught with chocolate on his face, what a shame!!! In hindsight i must say that the new player i have in my band did question 1 or 2 files that we use as being his creations but he took it no further, i will now have him look at the files we use.
I think a great vote of thanks should be passed on to `cat and john`who i am sure found no satisfaction in passing their reports to Pat, but for the sake of our forum they had no option.
As i said at the outset i am at a loss to explain how i really feel, i thought i had found a midi site with integrity but alas not so. I hope our forum stays strong and i commend Pat`s quick and very correct actions so come everyone let`s all rally round and move on with a new spring in our step.
weegeo-------------------totally disgusted and feeling betrayed `but long runs the fox`
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JazzCat
Full Member
E=Fb Musician's Theory of Relativity
Posts: 709
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Post by JazzCat on Mar 5, 2009 12:09:34 GMT
Believe me, weegeo I wanted to say something many months ago, but this is my second go-around at discovering a blatant plagiarizer. I learned from my mistakes the first time, what I needed to do to be able to prove, with absolutely no shadow of doubt, that it was indeed happening, and has been happening for many, many years.
I also simply did not want to believe what I was seeing, and hoped that it was only one or two files that somehow slipped through the cracks and wound up accidently altered. Anyway, after my initial discovery I inlisted the help of two very fine people. One of whom you know well. John G. With the help of someone else, we were able to find and prove that 122 files were ripped off. If we keep looking we could easily come up with that many more. Right now I know a certain section where I could come up with at least 15 more files and in 45 minutes to an hour check, prove and add tem to the list. (yes, the process is quite time consuming)
To be absolutely sure I was not seeing things, I contacted Dave Clackett of Hands On MIDI and requested two of his original files. I discovered he is the only person who has ever sequenced these two particular files, and so I asked him if he would give them to me for a comparison. He gladly did. Once I compared those 2 files with the ones that bear the MIDIMart copyright I could no longer doubt what my own eyes were telling me from what I had seen on the first 20 or so files I had discovered.
Below is a list of companies and hobbyists who's copyrights have been stripped and now bear either the Minvec or MidiMart copyright. (Minvec is what Glenn used to call his 'company' before he changed it to MidiMart)
Out of the list below, so far I found that Tune 1000 has been the most plagiarized company.
Anthony Peters
Creston Lamar Burks
Dean Ward for Consequential Music.Inc.
Don Carroll
Edirol Italy
Hands On MIDI
HitBit
Hot House
Labyrinth
MIDI C.A.D.
Music Sales LTD
Roland Corporation
Swinging Data
Tune 1000
Now keep in mind that I, and the small team of experts that confirmed my findings, can ONLY prove two things.
1) The files we have compared are indeed plagiarized.
2) Plagiarized files are for 'sale' on the MidiMart.net website, via a yearly membership fee.
What we can NOT prove is who did the plagiarizing.
When I first contacted Glenn regarding the matter he asked for a list of the files I had found and said he would remove those files only. That simply was not good enough for me and so I turned over communications to someone else. That someone else got no farther than I had with him.
Glenn claims that he is but one member of a sequencing team and unbeknownst to him, a member of his team supplied the offending files. I personally do not believe it, and I have legitimate reasons and solid suspicions as to why I do not believe it.
Glenn was asked to supply 10 to 15 files that he personally sequenced. I was either unwilling to do so, or simply could not. He clamed that the team went into the studio and laid down parts so he doesn't know what he did and what he did not do. Again, I do not believe it and I have legitimate reasons for not believing it.
I however, can NOT prove his statements to be untrue.
Regardless of who did the actual plagiarizing, Glenn Humber is 100% culpable and legally responsible for the content of his site. He owns the site, and I believe even has a registered DBA ( Doing Business As) on the MidiMart name. If you google his name and MidiMart you will find references to that.
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Post by weegeo on Mar 5, 2009 12:40:10 GMT
Thank you very much for your reponse Jazz and i want to give you my personal thanks for the work you have been doing, you and if i may say it [your team] have perhaps saved quite a few musicians from losing a lot of money and we should be thankful, as for Glenn i am afraid to say he has crossed the line and now may have to face the consequences but at least you and onthers have saved the integrity of our forum
weegeo
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Post by oliver101 on Mar 5, 2009 13:08:51 GMT
Dear all
Can I ask a question that I may have missed the answer to. Can anyone tell us how the forum is to continue? I am a relative newcomer to this forum but am really beginning to enjoy participating with the various topics and would like everything to continue.
Oliver101
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Post by Emerald Midi on Mar 5, 2009 13:24:16 GMT
Dear all Can I ask a question that I may have missed the answer to. Can anyone tell us how the forum is to continue? I am a relative newcomer to this forum but am really beginning to enjoy participating with the various topics and would like everything to continue. Oliver101 The forum will continue as "normal" and for as long as the members want it to. The forum always operated independently of Glenn's website but for obvious reason there were some connections. The membership was for the most part as a result of those who would have joined the forum after visiting midimat.net, which is a very high profile midi website and attracts an incredable amount of traffic and membership -- only can only guess at the numbers who have paid for access to that site. This forum never had to feature in any search engines for the reasons stated already but now we will ensure that it is attached to the likes of Google and Yahoo and other major search engines across the Internet, this we hope will ensure we attract new members to our ranks. But bear in mind this won't happen over night and will take a little while to take off, but we are blessed in that we have a very sizable membership as it is of very supportive and understanding people who love discussing everything and anything to do with MIDI  |
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Post by oliver101 on Mar 5, 2009 13:30:10 GMT
Thanks for clearing that point up.
Oliver101
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Post by Emerald Midi on Mar 5, 2009 13:35:19 GMT
You are welcome |
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Post by Emerald Midi on Mar 5, 2009 13:36:20 GMT
Thank you very much for your reponse Jazz and i want to give you my personal thanks for the work you have been doing, you and if i may say it [your team] have perhaps saved quite a few musicians from losing a lot of money and we should be thankful, as for Glenn i am afraid to say he has crossed the line and now may have to face the consequences but at least you and onthers have saved the integrity of our forum weegeo Thank you George for those comments. Glenn's position as a forum admin was revoked after he repeatedly failed to respond adequately to these very serious allegations of plagiarising; I felt I needed to remove him from any position of authority and also to disassociate further our forum from him and his website. This was a regrettable decision and one that was not taken lightly -- but as mentioned it needed to be done to help protect the integrity of the forum. |
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Post by kemo on Mar 5, 2009 14:44:38 GMT
Hi guys just received the email. First of all, thank you to the people who took the time and researched this issue in it's entirety, we owe you a debt of gratitude. We have been lied to, robbed and basically made fools of. Now I personally think it's up to us members to keep the only part of MidiMart that I was ever interested in (The Forum) going. We have good people but it only takes one to deprive everyone else. I will continue to be a member and support this forum in it's time of need.
Good Luck to the you Pat/Gerry and all the Mods. I know this place will grow from strength to strength..
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Post by rosybud1956 on Mar 5, 2009 15:02:15 GMT
I am so pleased some true colours have finally been revealed. After having some of the midi files I had uploaded to help members placed in an area accessible to financial members only I lost a bit of respect for the site. I am so pleased to feel free to give a lot more support to forum members again although I have continued to privately help many where possible. For me it is like an huge cloud has finally lifted. 'The family' can only grow stronger!!!! Regards Lyn. PS Congrats to Tubbs!!!!!! Cheers Lyn
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